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The Hazards of Diversity and Cultural Appropriation

I'm hesitant to comment because this thread seems destined for locking if it gets any traction.

But I'm often treading where angels fear to tread so ... some points:

Since reading the speech at that link, I've wondered how different it would have been if the speaker, in a different setting perhaps, had focused the speech on writing better rather than on the politics of the before and after stages of writing.

I do believe the issues raised will have more relevance and importance for those who are actively seeking to earn a living through writing and publishing—as the speaker herself signified by reference to reviews she and others have received. But from my own limited perspective, the diversity and number of niches that now exist, including independent and/or self publishing, seem to counteract the need for said speech? (Except, perhaps, for the notes I include below, i.e. the broader issue of personal creative agency.) And I also doubt that the trend being attacked is actually widespread, pervasive, in the realm of publishing.

If I were tasked with turning the speech into advice for new writers, re-focused on writing itself rather than on the broader political atmosphere, I think I'd say this:

  • If someone tells you that you must include a character from a particular class or social group in your novel, ignore that command.

  • If someone tells you that you must not include a character from a particular class or social group in your novel, ignore that command.

  • The rationale for the above two points: Choose your characters on the basis of the needs of your story, your own understanding of your story, and your desires/intentions for the story, rather than on what someone else tells you must or must not be included in the story.

  • Remember that engaging characters have many traits, are well-rounded and complex; e.g., the fact that a character is an orc is not enough to make that character engaging. The fact that a character is _____________ is not enough to make that character engaging.

  • In line with the previous point, avoid tokenism. (But "tokenism" can be hard to define, sometimes; so focusing on making characters well-rounded and complex—not defined by a single trait—might be a better approach than worrying about what is or is not tokenism.)
 
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Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I'm also of the opinion that cultural appropriation, while maybe relevant as a talking point, is too ill-defined and intrusive to make any decisions or judgements about on its own. That's only one piece of diversity as a movement, however.

My advice as a moderator to those participating in this thread is to be clear when you're talking about cultural appropriation as distinct from the greater diversity movement or from other distinct aspects of it. Otherwise things can escalate quickly.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Foz Meadows commented on the speech, here: Identity & Narrative: A Response to Lionel Shriver | shattersnipe: malcontent & rainbows

My personal view is that "cultural appropriation" in the sense that you can't write about people or cultures other than your own is not a compelling notion. I don't subscribe to the idea that we can't write about people, places, and cultures other than our own, no matter how those other people, places, and cultures are situated relative to our own. The issue is more one of how you approach the topic.

If someone reads my story and says "hey, you can't write about these traditionally marginalized people," I'll ignore that feedback. I certainly can write about them. If someone reads my story and says "hey, you've presented a stereotyped and/or inaccurate view of these traditionally marginalized people," then I'll take that feedback seriously (although with respect to 'accuracy,' if my story is alt. history I might well veer away from true historical accuracy).
 

Mindfire

Istar
I think of cultural appropriation as going beyond just representing aspects of another culture, either by representing that culture disrespectfully or- in extreme cases- outright stealing things from it and claiming ownership of those things. For example, the insulting name and paraphernalia of a certain Washington football team. Or how the diabolically self-promoting birds of carrion known as the Kardashians like to imitate the look and style of African-American women and then manage to convince the larger culture they somehow invented it. Or how a certain type of White American likes to seize upon the vernacular of minority subcultures and than run it into the ground with ill-use or overuse. Or how Black musicians invented both jazz and rock and roll but neither became really socially acceptable until white musicians got in on it. Or, going further back, how empires like the British plundered archaeological artifacts from other cultures and took them back to their museums, refusing to return them. Etc, etc, etc.
 
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Nimue

Auror
I have to say, I've heard quite a bit of discussion on cultural appropriation and never heard anyone genuinely use it to mean "writing about a culture other than one's own". Like ever? I agree with Mindfire that there's an element of claiming ownership or authority or entitlement to something, particularly something sacred or culturally important.

A white guy claiming to be Native and writing a fictional "autobiography"? Yeah, that's cultural appropriation, and there's more than one example of that particular scenario. A white guy writing a well-researched and thoughtful fantasy adaptation of a Native culture? Not so much of an issue.

The complaints I've heard about people writing about other cultures have more to do with stereotyping or a lack of research, not any kind of appropriation.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
@Nimue I've certainly heard it presented, many times, as writing about a marginalized culture you don't belong to.
 

Nimue

Auror
@Nimue I've certainly heard it presented, many times, as writing about a marginalized culture you don't belong to.
Huh. We've been reading different sources then, I think. I'd agree that there's a general vagueness in the definition of appropriation at work.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Huh. We've been reading different sources then, I think. I'd agree that there's a general vagueness in the definition of appropriation at work.
I've seen it online, but in addition to that I've had these discussions with professors and students at university going back to the 90s. There are definitely some out there who believe you shouldn't be writing about these cultures if you don't belong to them. I think it is a minority viewpoint.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
A quick search turned up a book called "Stranger at the Door: Writers and the Act of Writing," wherein under a section called Transcultural Appropriation, the author defines "literary appropriation" as when a writer uses "material and language that does not derive from his own background or culture."

That's the definition of cultural appropriation I'm arguing against, not against poorly research uses, stereotyping etc.
 

Mindfire

Istar
I've seen it online, but in addition to that I've had these discussions with professors and students at university going back to the 90s. There are definitely some out there who believe you shouldn't be writing about these cultures if you don't belong to them. I think it is a minority viewpoint.

That's also not the definition that I'm familiar with. But my take on what you're describing is that when you're part of the majority and writing about a minority experience, you're crowding out the voices of minority authors to write about their own culture and experience. Let's be real, POC authors have a lot harder time getting published than White authors. And then they face additional obstacles like being relegated to "special" sections of bookstores and libraries which makes their work less visible, or their work gets mismarketed because the Powers That Be don't think a book written by a POC author or with a POC face on the cover will sell. So in this case, it comes down to the fact that your voice has become more or less the authority in a sense on a culture that is not your own, while people of that culture can't get their voices heard. You're benefiting in some way from that culture while the people actually in it see none of those benefits. In a more or less equal society this wouldn't be an issue but with the privilege stacked the way it is, it's not completely harmless. It could almost be called exploitative. The solution isn't necessarily banning White authors from writing about minorities, but getting minority authors better support and promotion and rooting out the prejudices in the publishing industry.

A quick search turned up a book called "Stranger at the Door: Writers and the Act of Writing," wherein under a section called Transcultural Appropriation, the author defines "literary appropriation" as when a writer uses "material and language that does not derive from his own background or culture."

That's the definition of cultural appropriation I'm arguing against, not against poorly research uses, stereotyping etc.

See above. Also, you haven't said anything regarding my previous post. I'd be interested to hear your response.
 
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Nimue

Auror
That's also not the definition that I'm familiar with. But my take on what you're describing is that when you're part of the majority and writing about a minority experience, you're crowding out the voices of minority authors to write about their own culture and experience. Let's be real, POC authors have a lot harder time getting published than White authors. And then they face additional obstacles like being relegated to "special" sections of bookstores and libraries which makes their work less visible, or their work gets mismarketed because the Powers That Be don't think a book written by a POC author or with a POC face on the cover will sell. So in this case, it comes down to the fact that your voice has become more or less the authority in a sense on a culture that is not your own, while people of that culture can't get their voices heard. The solution isn't necessarily banning White authors from writing about minorities, but getting minority authors better support and promotion and rooting out the prejudices in the publishing industry.

I've heard, related to speaking over people, that it's one thing to write about black/gay/Latin characters as someone who doesn't belong to those groups and another thing to write a story about the experience of being black/gay/Latin without...having that experience. Not that it can't be done, but that by nature that is a difficult and quite possibly unwanted thing to set about doing.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Not that it can't be done, but that by nature that is a difficult and quite possibly unwanted thing to set about doing.

Difficult, yes, and it might well be unwanted by some, though I'm leery of the idea that writers should be swayed by the idea of what is wanted or unwanted. When you look at the history of literature, you can find a lot of writing that wasn't wanted at the time of its creation.

@Mindfire - I'll respond to your comments in more detail later - I have to run to a meeting. For now, I'll simply say that I agree that there should be more opportunity for writers of color and writers from marginalized groups, and I don't subscribe to the idea that if one person gets a publishing contract they've necessarily crowded out someone else. That's a reductive view of how the publishing marketplace works, in my view.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I've definitely seen Steerpike's definition before. The specific examples that people raise usually go deeper, but then the general definition that's drawn from them often comes out vague the way Steerpike describes it.


That's also not the definition that I'm familiar with. But my take on what you're describing is that when you're part of the majority and writing about a minority experience, you're crowding out the voices of minority authors to write about their own culture and experience.

I can understand the concern here. I do. But in trying to figure out how that's actionable, for me, I'm not sure that it is. Unless I'm just not supposed to write fantasy based on other cultures, which I don't think is the answer at all, and I recognize you've said that as well.

I also think it's more complicated than that. Take Black Panther, the Marvel character, who was created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. If he inspires black comic artists to get involved in the industry - even to correct some inadvertent offenses in his portrayal or development - would I be wrong to see that as a win for diversity?

Again, I'm looking for things that are actionable to me, in my own writing, which can likely be generalized to others in the MS community. Presuming the broadest definition of cultural appropriation, I think, doesn't get me anywhere, or taken too stridently could even take me a step backwards. What could I do to go forward or improve so far as cultural appropriation is concerned?
 
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Russ

Istar
I think the question of "cultural appropriation", like many things, has been hijacked by the radical opposite ends of the spectrum in internet discourse.

There are those who argue (I think fallaciously) that a writer not from a group should not write about the experience of members of that group.

On the other end of the spectrum are those who argue that they can (on this they are correct) and should write about any group they want, any way they want. It is kind of a radical free expression argument that many artists thoughtlessly often fall into.

I read that whole article and I found a quote in it from a writer I think in the Guardian (who the author disagreed with for their own reasons) that expressed how I think one should approach writing about cultures or groups not your own:

“special care should be taken with a story that’s not implicitly yours to tell.”

I am not sure that a writer facing culture appropriation concerns internally or externally needs much more guidance than that to steer a good course.
 

Mindfire

Istar
I can understand the concern here. I do. But in trying to figure out how that's actionable, for me, I'm not sure that it is. Unless I'm just not supposed to write fantasy based on other cultures, which I don't think is the answer at all, and I recognize you've said that as well.

I also think it's more complicated than that. Take Black Panther, the Marvel character, who was created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. If he inspires black comic artists to get involved in the industry - even to correct some inadvertent offenses in his portrayal or development - would I be wrong to see that as a win for diversity?

Again, I'm looking for things that are actionable to me, in my own writing, which can likely be generalized to others in the MS community. Presuming the broadest definition of cultural appropriation, I think, doesn't get me anywhere, or taken too stridently could even take me a step backwards. What could I do to go forward or improve so far as cultural appropriation is concerned?

Well that's just it, it is a complicated issue. I am grateful for Black Panther, who I wished I'd heard of sooner, and other characters like him made by White creators. I loved the Earthsea books (the first three anyway) because they were the first fantasy books I'd come across whose protagonists weren't all White. The fact that their author was didn't enter into it. But I think as we move forward we need to do better than just POC characters from White creators. I don't think they should go away, but that in addition we should make space for the work of people who previously went unheard. Of course I also think that fantasy is a slightly different beast as far as cultural representation and appropriation goes, depending on the type of fantasy. And all fantasy no matter the subcategory is a different family of beasts entirely from non-fantastical stuff. Secondary world fantasy, where everything is completely invented, can afford less scrutiny because you're not writing about anything in the real world. So there's less potential for harm there. However, you should still be careful to avoid the other thing I talked about: offensive stereotypes, disrespectful use of someone else's traditions, etc. Avoid that and you're in the clear as far as I'm concerned. But if your fantasy is of the type that does have a connection to our world, you need to be more careful because you are potentially representing real people. Rowling recently got into some hot water over her use of Native American traditions for example.

So far there's no clear-cut code of conduct. So on the individual level my recommendation is to simply do your research, treat your subjects with respect, and run it past beta readers with valuable perspectives on the content. But in the grand scheme of things, over the long term, I think the prejudices in the publishing industry need to be excised and minority writers afforded more opportunities. Do that and the issue will be mitigated, if not resolved.
 
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Nimue

Auror
Also, here's a response to Shriver's comments I think presents a pretty good counterargument:

Lionel Shriver?s Speech on Cultural Appropriation
I appreciate this article for giving me a good whiff of the original speech (which I decided not to listen to on the hunch that it might be more inflammatory than informative). I think I will nod in agreement with Jim C Hines and exit this conversation before the urge towards sarcasm becomes overwhelming. Mmmm-hmm.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
You know, I want to take a second to mention Avatar, the Last Airbender, because one of my projects is in a similar vein so far as this topic is concerned, and I don't think I'm the only one.

One of the criticisms I've seen leveled against the show is that the characters are written for a modern American audience, and don't do a good job reflecting modern or traditional Asian personality traits. A lot of characters are free-spirited, for instance, while there are very few expressions of shame, which would have been much more common than we see portrayed in the show.

But, I don't feel that I'm personally equipped to write directly for anything but an American audience. If I have anything to say about life and the human experience, it would be through the context of an American audience. I don't have a lot to say about East Asian life and values except perhaps in the most obvious outsider perspective. A lot of these things are universal, absolutely, and I don't mean to limit the appeal of anything I write, only the way that I personally can focus it.

Isn't that, at least to some degree, cultural appropriation? How can I write a story like Avatar, the Last Airbender, while showing respect for the base cultures, not crossing all of the wrong lines, and still using characters that appeal primarily to a modern American (let's add the UK and the like) audience?
 
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