Have our dragons grown larger?

[Steerpike]

Well, it was a very outspoken Christian creationist whom I first heard the theory from, so the Earth in his view would be scarcely older than about 6000 years. I myself am a Christian as well, and I'm unsure about theories of evolution and the like.

Ah, yes. Creationists throw that out there because they have to explain dinosaurs and it doesn't fit well with their young-earth theories. Interestingly, most of the evolutionary biologists I've worked with have been Christian, so there is nothing inherently incompatible between Christianity and evolution and/or an older earth. It is really not much more than a political debate, in my view, with roots in the lessening spheres of church authority during the 1800s and onward. So, my personal opinion is that one can be every bit a Christian and believe in evolution, the Big Bang, and so on. One Christian I talked to, who was in seminary, simply stated that in his view all science was doing was uncovering how God did it all, and to him that made it all the more impressive. Not everyone shares that view, of course. This man was at a Jesuit institution, and I do not know whether that is standard Jesuit thinking on the issue or simply his own viewpoint.

[Ireth]

That is quite interesting. I think we should leave off this discussion here, as this is verging into religious territory and I don't want to anger the mods if we delve into more touchy aspects of it.

[Steerpike]

That is quite interesting. I think we should leave off this discussion here, as this is verging into religious territory and I don't want to anger the mods if we delve into more touchy aspects of it.

I know I was starting to grow angry!

But yes, you're right. A fascinating topic, nonetheless!

[Devor]

This man was at a Jesuit institution, and I do not know whether that is standard Jesuit thinking on the issue or simply his own viewpoint.

That's pretty typical among Jesuits, which is a Catholic teaching order that usually works pretty closely with secular groups. That's also common among Catholics in the U.S. and Europe. The "official" Catholic teaching is that you can understand much of Genesis as either a literal portrayal or as an extended metaphor, both are fine with the Church - and that's an understanding which goes back at least as far as 300 a.d., when Augustine asked "How can God walk in the garden?" and a priest told him exactly that.

The main thing that Evolution has done is to give a rationalistic approach to the creation of human life, forcing many denominations into taking a firm stand where they never needed to before. Personally, there are aspects of Evolution about which I have questions and doubts, but not with any zealotry.

Even from a Creationist viewpoint, there's no reason to define a "day" to God the same way that we would define a day for mankind. I'm not aware of any reason, whatever your beliefs, to think Dinosaurs and Humans have ever lived side by side.

- - - - - - - - -

Sorry - go back to your discussion.

Vikings, for sure, believed in massive dragons. I wonder if other cultures did, too, but simply painted them smaller because of artistic styles?

[Steerpike]

Thanks, Devor. That is good information. I wasn't aware of what the official or predominant views were. I used to talk to this guy in a coffee shop not far from where he was in school. Interesting cat.

[Shockley]

Religious talk: The Catholic, Orthodox and Anglican churches all have an official stance recognizing evolution as scientific reality, although they all have different interpretations of what that means and what it says about the need for a divinity.

Science talk: As small as a T-Rex's arm might be in comparison to the actual thing, they're extremely muscular and powerful (though rather useless). No way any man could pull its arm off, not even in his wildest exploits.

[Butterfly]

I think the issues with dinosaurs being present in Beowulf's time, or in medieval tales was more of an issue with them eroding out of cliffs such as at Dover (I think Dover, but certainly it happens somewhere around the south coast of England and Cornwall), and also in ancient miners discovering bones and fossils buried underground. Obviously, dinosaurs weren't known much before the 1800s, so I doubt the people who made these early discoveries actually knew what they were, thus they gave rise to stories of dragons (think the skull of a T-Rex) and giants (the huge thigh bones, rib bones etc).

[Jabrosky]

Science talk: As small as a T-Rex's arm might be in comparison to the actual thing, they're extremely muscular and powerful (though rather useless).

Many paleontologists hypothesize that T. Rex might have used its arms like meat hooks to hold struggling prey, so they wouldn't have been useless. You are right about their being very muscular though.

[Shockley]

I was very recently in Houston and was talking to the chief paleontologist at their new Hall of Paleontology. He seems to like the theory that the arms were used almost exclusively in child-rearing related activities, and I think that makes sense.

[Anders Ämting]

There are definitely massive dragons within Nordic and Babylonian mythology.

- Nidhog is chewing on the world tree (ie, the universe) and is actually doing severe damage to it.
- Fafnir is large enough that Siegfried can actually bathe in his blood. (This is also the prototype for dragon's hoarding gold)
- Tiamat is not only depicted as a dragon, but as the sea itself.

If you're willing to go as far as to say that the Leviathan and Behemoth are dragons of sort, their size should be obvious.

One of my favorite dragon myths is that of the Tarasque, who is also huge and depicted as such.

A lot of those aren't really dragons, though. Leviathan and Behemoth probably refers to a whale and an ox, respectively.

Though, actually, if you look close at mythology you may find that the "dragon antagonist" symbolism seems to have developed out of an earlier "serpent antagonist" symbolism.

Antagonist snakes is a very common theme in mythology. There's Apep, Jormungandr, Python, Yamata no Orochi, Tiamat and the snake in the Garden of Eden. They are all depicted as serpents, often monsterous ones, and they are all killed or otherwise defeated by a god or divine hero.

Eventually, the serpents became dragons, but they kept their original symbolism - that of a mighty adversary of the just and virtuous, whom must be overcome and defeated. It's really quite interesting.