Black vs White symbolism

[Gryphos]

I thought this belonged in this section because it can concern how worlds and cultures are created and stuff. But anyways, I read an interesting thing.

Interesting thing: Writing with Color — Black and White Symbolism: A Look into the Trope...

And it really did get me thinking about the unbelievably common trope in fantasy about white/light = good and black/dark = bad. And the more I think about it, it is really stupid and, as the post claims, even harmful.

I myself was guilty of using some minor colour connotations in my work, calling a kind of magic 'the black arts', but not anymore. I've decided to change it to something less cliche and boring which doesn't rely on old-fashioned colour connotations. Maybe something like 'unhallowed arts' or 'eldritch arts'.

Just thought it was worth sharing.

 

[Shreddies]

I think the reason the idea of white/light = good and black/dark = evil is so prevalent is because it is older than most cultures around today.

Due to additive mixing, light usually looks white (or at least very bright). You need light to see. With it you can see the dangers around you. It's warm (sunlight and firelight anyway), it comes from the sun (the main provider of life in the world), etc.

And dark/black is the color of night (the dead of night, I mean, not this namby-pamby 'twilight' business). Night is cold because the sun's gone. It's dangerous since you cannot see around you as well. Many predators (both real and from superstition) emerge at night to hunt, etc.

So I don't really see a problem with the light/good dark/evil tropes, aside from excessive oversaturation. Personally, I like black and white. They are poetic, very beautiful, and as old as man himself, predating any ill-conceived notions of their use.

I do, however, see a problem using the terms black and white (and color in general) to refer to people. It's a cheap (and grossly inaccurate) label, based on their least interesting trait! They deserve to be treated with more respect than that (and so do the people!).

On an interesting side note: According to research done by a philologist by the name of Lazarus Geiger, every culture first had a word for white and black (or light and dark), and the next word for a color to come into existence (in every language studied around the world) was red, the color of blood and wine.

An interesting read, none-the-less.

 

[Russ]

So I read the article and while I am very much a proponent of socially consious diversity in literature I think the author's analysis goes a little too far in looking for racism where it may not be, and its analysis and conclusions are way too simplistic and self serving for my liking.

For example, the bold assertion that the term "black magic" is racist. It's just not a supportable conclusion.

And black as a colour has not been used as simply a racist assault at all. In fact the colour has been co-opted by some of the most racist groups in history.

If "white" means good or noble, somebody should have mentioned that to the SS who wore black dress uniforms, or to Mussilini's blackshirts, or other blackshirt groups of racist/fascist movements. Or to the expression "black tie" which means a high class or formal event.

It strikes me that the black/white dichotomy and symbolism lies in the much older fear of night and safety of day or firelight. A person is not scared of going into a dark cave because they are afraid a negro is going to jump out at them, they are scared because they cannot see or anticipate the hazards.

I agree the use of the term "black" and "white" is much trickier when it comes to race (where the proper terms have never simply been black or white etc) but I would suggest that the idea of "race" is a flawed social construct anyways, but that is a discussion for another time.

 

[Penpilot]

So I read the article and while I am very much a proponent of socially consious diversity in literature I think the author's analysis goes a little too far in looking for racism where it may not be, and its analysis and conclusions are way too simplistic and self serving for my liking.

For example, the bold assertion that the term "black magic" is racist. It's just not a supportable conclusion.

As an Asian, I'm not going to object to the Beatles song The Yellow Submarine, nor will I object to being listed in the Yellow Pages, nor will I object if someone offers to call a Yellow Cab for me. If you look for something, you will find it. It's called Selective Perception. https://explorable.com/selective-perception

 

[Nagash]

In my opinion, looking for racism in older than dirt expressions and symbolism is very misguided. As mentioned above "black magic" isn't negative because of this "colonial idealism" according which there is a natural hierarchy of races but because there has been, in the occidental imaginary, the idea of evil and good being symbolized through colors. What I mean is that the assimilation between "evil" and the color black is older than dirt, and largely predates the modern conflict between so-called races. Christian symbolism established black as the colorless embodiment of sorcery, evil and malady ("black plague"), and in later eras of our history, assimilated those who were considered as uncivilized to this amalgam. "Black people" are not black so much as they are brown, just like white people have a more beige tone of color on their flesh - religious dualism made it so that you could contemplate the embodiment of this symbolic in society, with this same opposition between black and white, the latter being the civilized counterpart of the much more primitive former.

"Black magic" is a notion that was sculpted by christianity, and which therefore bears some sense form a judeo-christian standpoint, but which wouldn't mean much in an other culture. Black has been the symbol of death and decay, just like it has been the symbol of the Earth Mother and rebirth - same for red, which can symbolize war and blood, or life and joy.

Without any offense meant to the author of this article, I find this constant search for racism (the modern notion, which stems from social darwinism) in much older concepts very crass and idiotic. Rest at ease Gryphos - I don't think any one will take offense from your usage of "black magic" in your books. At worst, those unfamiliar to this occidental notion will just have a hard time understanding it to its fullest.

 

[Feo Takahari]

Hey, it's the folks Jabrosky has beef with.

I feel like the authors overplay their hand, and I don't really buy a lot of what they're posting, but I do like to complicate the dark-versus-light thing. I see darkness as fundamentally about concealment, and there's safety and security to being in the shadows while those who hate or fear you stick to the light. Conversely, light can be overwhelming, even burning, penetrating every corner and revealing every shame, denying any dignity to the victim. You can also match darkness to equality--no one is beautiful or ugly in the shadows.

(One thing I want to see someday is a stealth horror game where the threat is pure order and beauty, purging all that is disordered and wrong, and shadows are your only protection. Picture a lady in white, kneeling in a field, finding all the flowers that are the wrong color and pulling them up by the roots. Step out from the darkness of the trees, and her mouth opens impossibly wide and jagged fangs close on your head.)

 

[Devor]

I would say it's unfortunate that we use the same words, white and black, for skin tone as we do for these basic concepts. If there's something to change or "fix" here, it's the words we use for race, not the ones we use for light and dark.

 

[Mythopoet]

I would say it's unfortunate that we use the same words, white and black, for skin tone as we do for these basic concepts. If there's something to change or "fix" here, it's the words we use for race, not the ones we use for light and dark.

Pretty much this. It makes NO SENSE at all to use "white" and "black" as racial labels since the races that we use those words for are not at all white or black. "White" people can be any variation on peach to pink to yellowish to brownish. And "Black" people run a whole spectrum of browns. If anything needs to change, it's using those words for race.

White and Black equating to light and dark makes much more sense. Since, in general, we observe daylight as having a clear, white quality and night and darkness as being black.

As stated above, humanity's instinctive response to light and dark comes from the earliest times of our existence. It's ingrained in us on a subconscious level. Humans rely heavily on sight and we can only see when there is light reflecting off of objects and into our eyes. Thus light is safety to us, and darkness is danger. And this is clearly where the white vs. black dichotomy used throughout world literature comes from. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

Though interestingly I've noticed that Japanese media seems more willing to play around with this concept and turn it around. The most prominent example is probably the manga/anime Bleach where the Shinigami dress in black with white accents and their most powerful enemies, the Arrancar, dress in white with black accents. All of the monstrous "Hollows" that it is the Shinigami's job to eradicate wear white masks.

 

[Russ]

There are lots of heroes in modern western mythology who wear black as well. For instance Johnny Cash who wears it as a sign of mourning, not evil.

Or the amazing "Chris" played by Yul Brenner in the Magnificent Seven.

 

[X Equestris]

I feel like this is grasping at straws. As others in his thread have mentioned, the light/dark opposition and their association with white and black are primordial. That's not racism, that's something that is rooted in the human mind. If someone decides to extrapolate this to race, then yes, that's racist, and it has been done before, but that doesn't mean every time someone uses white is good and black is bad symbolism that they're trying to tie it to race.

And I have to agree with those in this thread saying that it's the words we use for race that are at fault, as they're pretty inaccurate to begin with.

 

[Miskatonic]

As an Asian, I'm not going to object to the Beatles song The Yellow Submarine, nor will I object to being listed in the Yellow Pages, nor will I object if someone offers to call a Yellow Cab for me. If you look for something, you will find it. It's called Selective Perception. https://explorable.com/selective-perception

Like when a few loons tried to say the Two Towers movie had some direct link to what happened on 9/11.

 

[WooHooMan]

So, anyone know some other aesthetic to represent good and evil?
I remember reading that there was a Disney movie that used warm colors to signify good and cool colors to signify evil. I've thought about trying that out.

 

[Penpilot]

So, anyone know some other aesthetic to represent good and evil?
I remember reading that there was a Disney movie that used warm colors to signify good and cool colors to signify evil. I've thought about trying that out.

One of the classics is beauty and ugliness, which is just as problematic.

 

[Miskatonic]

So, anyone know some other aesthetic to represent good and evil?
I remember reading that there was a Disney movie that used warm colors to signify good and cool colors to signify evil. I've thought about trying that out.

Evil can masquerade as good, so in that situation colors used are a misdirection.

 

[WooHooMan]

Evil can masquerade as good, so in that situation colors used are a misdirection.

Sure it can but that's not what I mean. I'm curious if anyone has any alternatives to black/dark and white/light.

 

[CupofJoe]

Almost any colour paring can be made in to Good vs Evil.
I think you have to pick one that works for you and then make it work for you.
I liked this page from TV Tropes Good Colors, Evil Colors.
Just about every colour is there and usually on more than one side...
And who says it has to be two colours, the Navajo have 4 colours in their world; White, Blue, Yellow and Black. None are good or bad on their own, but all can be seen in those way if the context is right. For example Black is the colour of the North. It is the colour of the earth that brings us food, and of cold winter winds and snow that freezes and kills, and of nights that let you see the stars and tell the old stories but also let the Wolf and Coyote hunt.
[This is how I have understood Navajo mythology and philosophy, if I have it wrong please excuse my ignorance]

 

[Russ]

Sure it can but that's not what I mean. I'm curious if anyone has any alternatives to black/dark and white/light.

You can work with any dichotomy of your choosing. Life/death. Growth/Decay. Truth/Lies. Health/Illness. Rich/poor. Dry/Wet.

The possibilities to rework the traditional light dark are endless.

 

[Devor]

So, anyone know some other aesthetic to represent good and evil?
I remember reading that there was a Disney movie that used warm colors to signify good and cool colors to signify evil. I've thought about trying that out.

Disney often uses Lime Green to represent evil, and villains call everybody "Fools!" a lot.

I loosely intend to use puke green vs orange, as well as two different shades of purple, for good and evil, for the one project that uses actual visuals.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

You could tie colors to certain aspects of evil, like green for a demon-lord of envy. In ASoIaF, the most evil house in GRRM's horrible world is the Boltons'. Roose Bolton wears...

PINK!
​

Pink is the color of your body (regardless of race) after your skin has been peeled off.

But anyway, what I mean is have a cult like the "Red Plumes" or something, where color may represent Them even though that color isn't evil aside from that one aspect. In any of the above examples, green, pink or red could still represent peace, nature, baby girls, love, marriage, etc.



EDIT - It may be worth noting that we tie colors to concepts, but these vary from culture to culture. Having lined in both USA and Hong Kong, I know this:

US: black = funeral dress, white = wedding dress
HK: white = funeral dress, red = wedding dress

(Could you, therefore, have white = evil and red = holy?)

 

[Laurence]

PINK!
​

Of all the pinks, you go for a light salmon.