vampires, who likes them, who doesn't?

[Steerpike]

Plenty of people would proudly defend Paolini. I think they're wrong on a lot of levels, but he's far from universally maligned.

I'm pretty sure there are a number of fans of Eragon and others in the series on these very forums.

[Mindfire]

Yes, that argument. I'm not talking about pointing to examples of the argument, but to some evidence actually substantiating the effects that those who make the argument claim.

I can't say if Twilight will encourage teen girls to seek out abusive relationships. I certainly hope no one out there is that stupid. But if they are... natural selection?

Anyway, regardless of the effect, my biggest "ick factor" with Twilight is that her relationship with Edward is unhealthy... and the book doesn't even notice. I know you've heard the "watches her while she sleeps" thing before, but its still creepy. And yet the book ostensibly makes it out to be romantic. Also, Bella rejects a genuinely nice person for a self-described vicious undead killer (although thats sort of an informed attribute) and the book seems oblivious to the fact that that's not a good decision. It's one thing to be disconnected from reality, but this series seems disconnected from logic altogether.

[Shockley]

I was going to make this point earlier, but I totally forgot.

Books are meant to be read; writing is only the act that gets them to the place where they can be read. In that sense, Meyer has been extremely successful in accomplishing the prime purpose of putting out a book. We can diss on the writing, the content, etc. whatever, but we do that as writers of books first and readers second.

That's why we'll never understand the Twilight fanbase, fundamentally.

[Mindfire]

I'm pretty sure there are a number of fans of Eragon and others in the series on these very forums.

Well that's interesting. Maybe we should start a thread about that next. Also, I think I've found the one argument that can convince me to support fan-fiction.

[Ireth]

Anyway, regardless of the effect, my biggest "ick factor" with Twilight is that her relationship with Edward is unhealthy... and the book doesn't even notice. I know you've heard the "watches her while she sleeps" thing before, but its still creepy. And yet the book ostensibly makes it out to be romantic. Also, Bella rejects a genuinely nice person for a self-described vicious undead killer (although thats sort of an informed attribute) and the book seems oblivious to the fact that that's not a good decision. It's one thing to be disconnected from reality, but this series seems disconnected from logic altogether.

^ This. It's not that the book is oblivious to the badness of the relationship, it's that it paints the relationship as beautiful and healthy and perfect and dazzling. Which, in a nutshell, is why I hate it. But I'm one person out of ~7 billion, so take my two cents or leave them as you will.

[Steerpike]

It's not that the book is oblivious to the badness of the relationship, it's that it paints the relationship as beautiful and healthy and perfect and dazzling.

I think this is a false statement.

You're getting the book through Bella's POV, and you see how she feels about things. It is up to you to decide if she is right or not.

[Mindfire]

I think this is a false statement.

You're getting the book through Bella's POV, and you see how she feels about things. It is up to you to decide if she is right or not.

I think that's letting the author off too easy. Either the relationship is supposed to seem creepy or its supposed to seem perfectly romantic. If the former, the writer failed somewhere because all Twifans see in Edward is a knight in sparkling armor. If the latter, then both the author and the book have serious issues.

[Shockley]

I think we should bear in mind that what is 'normal' and what is 'creepy' are purely subjective.

For some people, writing fantasy would be extremely creepy.

[Steerpike]

I think that's letting the author off too easy. Either the relationship is supposed to seem creepy or its supposed to seem perfectly romantic. If the former, the writer failed somewhere because all Twifans see in Edward is a knight in sparkling armor. If the latter, then both the author and the book have serious issues.

I don't agree. That's letting the reader off too easy. There's nothing wrong with an author throwing something out there and letting the reader draw conclusions. Some of the greatest works of literature do just that, without the author intruding and saying "now, you're supposed to think X, Y, or Z."

[Benjamin Clayborne]

Every criticism of Meyer I've heard seems to be couched in either jealously or resentment.

You must not have heard very many, then. I've seen a number of criticisms that focus on things like the fact that Bella and Edward are in what is pretty clearly an abusive relationship, and yet that relationship is lionized as True Love For The Ages, which is an absolutely awful role model for the young women who are the book's core audience. It has nothing to do with jealousy or resentment; it's a perfectly valid criticism of the book's central relationship. And that's just the most obvious one I can think off of the top of my head.

I'm not making any claim about the relative frequency of arguments-that-are-not-couched-in-jealousy-or-resentment, but to claim they don't exist is absurd on its face.