DIFFERING languages

[Kit]

If this has already been addressed, can someone point me to the thread? (Couldn't find one, but it seems like a very basic problem)

I have pulled several words and a few phrases out of my hat for my MC's language... basically they have their own names for a handful of certain objects and concepts that are central to their way of life (including a few things that have no direct English translation). I think this "language" sounds reasonably cohesive, since I cobbled together sounds that I tend to like. Lots of K's and I's and three-syllable words.

Now I need to come up with a few words and phrases in a language pertaining to a completely different culture in the story. At first I was just picking more stuff out of my hat, thinking, "It'll be fine, I'm making it all up anyway," But then I looked at it and realized that the "foreign" language really needs to have a different flavor to it than the MC's language, and I'm not sure how to best accomplish that.

I've been looking at examples of different languages online all night, thinking maybe I could rip off something, but I'm still flailing.

One idea that seems to be working a little bit: For a different project, I recently notated a bunch of place names from Michigan that were based on the local native language(s). I then noted a bunch of place names from Washington state which were based on THEIR local native language(s). It was pretty obvious that these were two distinct flavors. So one thing I tried last night was to write down some of the more repetitive syllables from the Michigan names, and combine them with a few other syllables, to try to capture that unique flavor. I'm still experimenting with this, so I'm not sure it's going to work- but you can definitely tell the difference between a phrase from my original "language" and a phrase from the Michigan-derived syllables.

Does anyone have any experience/ideas for dealing with this issue?

[Benjamin Clayborne]

I wouldn't say I have much experience with it, but I have been doing something vaguely similar for my NIP. There's several "foreign" cultures and I've had to come up with proper names/foreign words for some of them. Each has its own flavor (one of them is sort of vaguely Italian, another is Germanic, another is Chinese, another is Albanian, and another is Celtic). Mostly what I do is take words from those languages and then bat them around, changing syllables, until I get something that sounds good. Only for one of the languages have I actually worked up a lexicon, since there's a dozen or so words from that language that are involved in the story.

Your method of taking related but different Native American words and basing your terms off those is pretty neat.

[Kit]

I'm really trying to avoid having a language come out looking identifiably ethnic, because I don't want any expectation that my invented culture is based off that culture. My MC's language is coming out a bit Chinese-like, but that's okay, because the story has so many Chinese elements already that it fits.

I did throw out one attempt at language #2 because it looked too French to me.

Two things I expressly want to AVOID are 1)having any of my languages come off sounding like Tolkien's elvish, 2)filling a language with gratuitous apostrophes just to make it weird. I see too much of both of these in bad fantasy writing today.

[Kevlar]

I think the problem here is that you're going at languages completely backwards. I'm sure Ravana will have more information for you, but I'll explain in some detail anyway.

Choosing similar sounds is a start, but what you need to do is come up with a specific set of phonological rules. You need to determine what sounds exist in your language, and how they can be combined. In English we have twenty-six letters, but many more sounds, such as ch, sh, th, and a variety of ways to use every vowel. We know to look at words if they can't possibly be English: djinn, schnitzel. Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch. Which is the name of a town in Wales.

So, start with phonology, and from there you can move on to the lexicon. If you need help I'm willing, but I'm definitely not an expert.

[Androxine Vortex]

gogogoch. Which is the name of a town in Wales.

I can't say it! I failed like ten times in a row! It's so weird!

[Kevlar]

I can't say it! I failed like ten times in a row! It's so weird!

Which is exactly my point of course.

[ShortHair]

Every linguist I've ever talked to told me I'm crazy. Caveat lector.

One of my theories about language is that it varies with climate. Romance (Mediterranean based) languages have lots of broad vowels, which are easy to pronounce in a warm climate. Scandinavian languages, from a cold climate, have sounds you can make with your lips close together.

My suggestion is to start with your MC's language. See if the sounds come from a certain part of the mouth, say, the front, the back, or the throat, or if they're pronounced in a certain way. Make a list of phonemes from that language. Now pick a different part of the mouth or certain style of pronunciation, say, guttural, and put together a different set of phonemes. Each language will have its own set of of phonemes and thus a distinctive sound.

[ascanius]

My first question is how much time do you want to spend doing this?
If your not all that up to spending a whole hell of a lot of time doing it then I would suggest Getting together all the sounds you want, not just letters but sounds, the actual sound like the sounds th has two sounds the and thin. Then figure out a syllable system you like, CV or VC or VCCV or what ever. Then just plug them into a conlang word gen and play around with the set up until you get something you like. Might also be a good idea to define rules of what sounds cannot happen, or what combination cannot happen.

If you want something more authentic then first I would read this. The Language Construction Kit Then go to wiki IPA and find the phones (sounds) you want on the table you can listen to them too to get exactly what you want. I would also suggest using the IPA notation for what what the character means. Instead of doing something like this; Th= th as in thin, or A = as in father. It simplifies things a good bit. Once thats done I would suggest putting them all onto a nice reference table based on locations like labial approximate etc, bilabial approximate. Then it's time to figure out your Phonemes, allophones, constraints, syllable structure and finally word gen.

This is what I have to give you an idea. <> denotes roman alphabet symbol. // denotes IPA symbol for that phone ie the actual sound.
Consonants: Nasal: <m>=/m/ <n>=/n/ <ń>=/ɲ/ plosive: <p>=/p/ <b>=/b/ <t>=/t/ <d>=/d/ <k>=/k/ <g>=/g/
Fricatives: <f>=/f/ <v>=/v/ <th>=/ɵ/ <c>=/s/ <s>=/ʃ/ Approximat: <y>=/j/ Trill: <r>=/r/ Tap: <r>=/ɾ/ Lateral approximates: <l>=/l/,/ɭ/
Vowels: <i>=/i/ <ĭ>=/ɪ/ <e>=/e/ <a>=/a/ <o>=/o/ <ŏ>=/ɔ/ <u>=/u/ double vowels are long.
Dipthongs: <ie>=/ie/ <iu>=/iju/ <ŏe>=/ɔe/ <ĭŏ>=/ɪɔ/ <ae>=/ai/

Phonemes: Consonants: <m>=/m/ <n>=/n/ <ng>=/ɲ/ <p>=/p/ <b>=/b/ <t>=/t/ <d>=/d/ <g>=/g/ <qu>=/kw/ <k>=/k/ <f>=/f/ <v>=/v/ <th>=/ɵ/ <sh>=/ʃ/ <c>=/s/ <y>=/j/ <l>=/ɭ/ <w>=/w/ <r>=/ɾ/
Vowels: <i>=/i/ <ĭ>=/ɪ/ <e>=/e/ <a>=/a/ <o>=/o/ <ŏ>=/ɔ/ <u>=/u/
Dipthongs: <ie>=/ie/ <iu>=/iju/ <ŏe>=/ɔe/ <ĭŏ>=/ɪɔ/ <ae>=/ai/
*Phonemes are shown with [] instead of<>.

complimentary Allophones: <r>=[ɾ] next to a consonant, [r] between vowels or at the beginning or end of a sentence. <k>= [k] anywhere excluding instances of [kʰ] at the beginning of a word only.
free allophones: <f>= [f] and [fʰ] before /a/(usually). <l>=/ɭ/ favored but /l/ can all occur save for instances of <ll>

Phonolgical constraints: Sound combinations that are not possible.
Nasals; + plosivs, Fricatives, approximat, trill, Tap, lateral approximats. Exception: <md>(rare); <mv>, <nv>; <ml>, <nl>.
plosives;+ Nasal, Fricatives, approximat, trill, tap, lateral approximats. Exceptions: <tv>, <thv>; <pr>, <br>, <tr>, <dr>; <pl>, <bl>, <tl>, <dl>,
Fricatives; +Nasal, plosives, approximat, trill, Tap, lateral approximats. Exceptions: <vr>; <fl>, <vl>
trill; +Fricatives, plosives. exceptions: <rth>=/rɵ/, <vth>=/vɵ/
lateral approximats; +plosivs, Fricatives. Exceptons: <lp>, <lt>, <ld>, <lb>; <lv> <lc>

Syllable structure. (V)(C)CV, and/or (V)V

If you get this far then all you need to do is plug your consonant variables into a word gen along with all possible variations of your syllable structure. This is the one I used, gen - language text generator Read the help me thing it actually is quite useful to fine tune things.

If you decide to go further and invest time in grammar then you can end up with things like.
Ta Bŏlirn r’inalqulve riwasilve rĭ dĭplitraln quelnaaln latria.

[ascanius]

Ok....this was supposed to be an edit. If you want any help pm me, I've already invested a good amount of time in this so have a general understanding of how it all works, and know where to ask for help if i don't.