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How deep to dig?

Lyons

New Member
I have started writing a bit of a yarn, and I don't have much experience, most here would be much more technically advanced compared to myself. I am starting to question whether I am being too succinct and not delving into the scenario enough. I have put in a lot of info, but i'm only at 1200 words for the chapter so far.

Does anyone have any rules or process that they follow to ensure that they are not glossing over too much.

It's probably just an experience thing. If this doesn't make sense just let me know :D

Any response appreciated.
 
Hi Lyons

I'd suggest just write it - worry about if its too succinct etc when you finish and when you're doing the rewrites. Too many people give up and worry about little things when the main thing is to just finish it. you can always polish it and improve it - but only if it exists.

To actually finish something and feel you're progressing I found that keeping a simple spreadsheet of date and overall word length and having it also presented as a graph meant:

I could see at a glance how I was doing (quantity wise at least).
If I'd left it too long I could see that the graph hadn't risen - and it encouraged me to do more.
it showed me how much i could write when I put my mind to it.
it gave me something to aim at.

Of course you need a bit of planning as well - but initially (and for the first time you're writing) - just get it down.

Good luck.
 
A lot of it is experience, including settling into your own style, your preferred amounts of taking time for physical description here, background there, plot twists somewhere else.

If it's just the length of a chapter you're thinking of, take a look at Nat Russo's What is the right chapter length?. There's no single answer there.

If you're worried about the story size and density overall...

A while back I came up with a rough formula that went something like: "#goals x #steps per goal x #complications of a step," then applying that to each character that had their own goals, and multiplying it all by the amount of time given for description and aftermath/anticipation.

If you think you've got a simple story with only a two-step goal and a couple complications, those include some of the most memorable stories ever written-- at least when a master picks which complications to use, and sets them all up with the right description. Or if you think the story really isn't complete without the contrast between two characters' goals and more stages for each, then that's what you have to do justice. Then again, maybe you like more events and balance it with less description because that's just the style you like.

One thing, though: when you're still building up your experience, you probably want to focus on the smaller ideas-- and yes, I mean short stories before you try a novel. It's too easy to get lost (or burned out) on bigger stories early on, but trying out smaller ones lets you hone your ability to pick the right things for it. (And, we all need the satisfaction of just getting through something a few times!)
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
The only way to become a good writer is to write. Congratulations on taking that first step...you're writing. That, in and of itself, takes bravery.

Writing is hard work...really hard. It takes time to assimilate the principles that work for you and develop a unique voice. Allow yourself that time. Be content with the knowledge that your early efforts will not be good.

While you're stumbling along, do some research on the craft of writing. There's loads of material online, in books, even on YouTube. Try to understand one concept at a time. Then practice that concept in your writing. If it garners results, make it a part of you. With enough practice it will become second nature.

Here are a couple of fundamental concepts to get you started:
1. Active writing vs passive writing
2. Using description to effect
3. Point of View (POV)
4. Writing effective dialogue

The following bits of advice are, in my mind, indispensable:
1. Write everyday, especially when you don't feel like it.
2. Do not rely on some ideal of inspiration. Inspiration exists but it finds you more often when you're working. Chain that muse to your desk. Make her work for you, not the other way around.
3. Make writing a habit & hold yourself accountable.
4. Understand that forming a habit takes commitment & may require 3-6 months of strict dedication.
5. Track your daily word count and watch how it adds up.
6. Make those daily goals low at first, ensuring they are achievable every day. Adjust the goal based off performance.
7. Read a lot & try to understand how your favorite authors became your favorite authors. What about their style attracts you? Try to emulate that style, then shed the shackles of emulation and allow your unique style to shine through.
8. Never compare your unedited, unrevised work to another's already published work. Their writing has enjoyed the benefit of professional editing and years of labor. Yours is a newborn and needs the same maturity.
9. Have other writers critique your work. Not relatives or friends, but people who will give you honest feedback. Grow a thick skin and understand their honesty can help you. They will see things in your writing that you are blind to.
10. Critique the work of others. You may think you aren't qualified to offer critique. That's untrue. If you can read & your mind can create and impression on what you read, you can at least offer that valuable information even if you don't know why the piece made you feel the way you feel. As you critique though, try to use your growing base of knowledge to understand what the other writer does well and what might help them improve the piece. The practice will reinforce your own fundamentals.

I promise you, if you do even some of those things, you will improve.

Lastly, understand this:


A commitment sometimes broken is better than no commitment at all.
 
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skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
I just want to echo what others are saying and to emphasize it. Right now, don't ask for advice. Don't read books, stay away from the Internet.

Just write. Get one story done. All the way, with revisions, until it's the best you know how to do with what you know now.

Then and only then, when you have one story done, show it around. Showing it here in the Showcase is a great place, but there are many. You can show it to friends, but the ones that matter are informed strangers (i.e., the folks here). You will learn a lot. And don't worry, your first one will be pretty awful. But until you have that first one, what you have is worse than awful--it's nothing.

*Then* and only then, when you have one story done *and* you've got feedback on it, *then* start reading and learning.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
I want to say a quick thank you to T. A. Smith. That was very well said. However, if you had told me all of that in 2001 when I began writing, I wouldn't have understood half of it. Critiques? What's that? ;)

So my journey was a little different, and it might have been because i started this a long time ago, but I did not have a forum, I didn't have writer friends. And most of all, I didn't tell my family until last year that I wrote at all! In fact, most of them (those not connected to me on facebook) still don't know. I wrote eleven full 100k word novels before I ever reached this forum. They are total crap and should never see the light of day, but I wrote them. All on my own, with no background of any kind.

They say it takes a million words to get good and I agree with that statement so much it hurts. It hurts to look over my first million words. It makes me cringe (when I pause laughing to actually bother to cringe). But it's the necessary run-up I needed.

Write anything you want and NEVER think it's wasted time. It isn't. Read, enjoy the advice available on the forums here. There is a lot of great advice about POV, dialogue, pacing, etc. that I would have benefited from immensely. But, now that I know all that stuff, I can separate the wheat from the chaff pretty quickly. I can take that stack of weak novels and shine it up. Or I can begin on a new project, never looking back at the old, but always searching for that next story that captures my attention and passion.

Whatever you choose to do, based on the multitude of possibilities out there, writing is the best way to get better. Just write. A lot. It's the first step and the most important one.

The things that most helped me improve, pretty much in order of how much they helped:

Critiquing for other people

Having my own work critiqued

Participating in prompt writing challenges

focusing my efforts on specific writing goals (maybe working solely in Deep Third POV or writing a story backwards, beginning with the ending and ending with the beginning. I test myself and make myself learn something new by not straying outside my exercise parameters

brainstorming with writer friends on the phone


For me, this has become about accepting nothing less than my best from myself, as I strive to make my work professional. But it takes time to fully develop your whole game enough to understand how to improve your work. I know that sounds stupid. But I started critiquing almost three years ago, when I joined this forum. I thought my work was the best it could be. I was happy with it, thought it was pretty good, and knew I couldn't get it much better without knowing what an agent wanted to see.

I sent it to a crit partner and he tore into me, saying, "I expect someone to send me their best edited work, not a rough draft in need of major rewrites." Only thing was...I didn't know how weak it was. In fact, I've come so far in the last three years, I've turned into that guy now. :) But for the last decade, I've written most days. For the last five years, I've written almost every single day. For the last three years, I've traded work with other writers, dozens of them. I've focused my mind on grasping advanced concepts, analyzing everything I read or write. I read agent blogs and writer blogs and keep in touch with other writers here, on facebook, and in my real life. This thing has taken over a lot of my time.

A few months ago, I read a challenge entry by a new forum member and since i didn't know him, I sent him a private chat, to just let him know how much I enjoyed his story. It blew my socks off and I like to let people know when they wow me. He said, "Thanks. That means a lot because I only started writing six months ago. I'm glad you liked my story."

:Confused: yeah.

I hope your journey is more like his than like mine. Some people are natural writers. It took me a lot of hard work. I can't say I envy people who just write gold from the get-go. I appreciate my journey, even though at times it's been rough. I hope I'm finally at the point where I can just feel proud of where I've gotten to.

Best wishes on your journey.
 
Hi Lyons,

There are two things you can do to help you decide if your work is too detailed or too skimpy. The first is to ask yourself a series of questions at the end of each chapter. Questions like: Do I understand how my character got here? Do I know where he's going after this? Do I understand everything that happened? Are there any jumps in it? (By this I mean was the character sitting down in one side of the room and then his standing out side facing baddies with sword in hand) These are all about continuity. About making sure that the plot flows smoothly.

At the same time you can do the same for description - but the questions are more simple: What does the reader need to know about the setting? Is there enough to tell them where the character is? Is there so much that it slows down the story?

Unfortunately while these are all things that you as a writer can do, they generally aren't sufficient on their own. When you write, unless you write only and purely for yourself, you have to consider that it is art - a form of communication. And communication is two way. At some point when you've gone as far as you think you can with your work, you have to show it to others and get feedback. Initially this would be through crit groups as there are in many forums online, and many writer's groups. And it can also be through beta readers - friends or people whose opinions you respect who'll read through your work and give you their honest thoughts. From them what you want are mostly the answers to one more question as regards continuity. Did they follow it?

Once you've gone through that of course, the real pain begins - editing!

Cheers, Greg.
 
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