Capitalization details

[Fyle]

I hate to take up a whole thread on a question that probably has a technical answer but -

Should a sentence like this :

"And I said what I want... but I changed my mind."

Have "but" as capital? Or can I get away with stylistic choice if it is lower case?

I like to follow the technical rules when I can.

Also, what are the rules on caps after "?" or "!" ?

Seems to me it depends on the context of the sentence, if it is a complete thought or not. As I test read people's work, I find different uses in caps after question marks and exclaimation points, I am not sure which ones are "wrong." I was wondering if there is a rule for this or style can get away with your own choice on the matter.

Thanks!

 

[Svrtnsse]

"And I said what I want... but I changed my mind."

I'm fine with the above. I don't know if it's necessarily correct, but it works for me.

Also, what are the rules on caps after "?" or "!" ?

I recently found this page (thanks Feo): Question Marks | Punctuation Rules

Rule 2a. A question mark replaces a period at the end of a sentence.

Personally, if the question mark is at the end of a sentence within quotation marks and is followed by a tag I won't use a capital letter for the next word, like this:

"How do you feel about this?" said Svrt

If it's a beat though, I'll use a capital letter.

"How do you feel about that?" Grinning to himself, Svrt tried to come up with a witty example.

Edit: The page I linked has rules for ellipses and exclamation marks and all kinds of weird things.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I agree with Svrtnesse on both accounts, with a small change.

Get rid of the space between the 3rd period and "but". Like this:

"And I said what I want...but I changed my mind."

If you had four periods, it would signify the end of the sentence after words trail off with the ellipses. In that case you would use a space after the 4th period and capitalize the next word as the beginning of a new sentence.

Three periods signifies a continuation of the sentence or thought. Therefore, there is no space before the word following the ellipses & that word is not capitalized.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Get rid of the space between the 3rd period and "but".

I can see where you're coming from, but I believe this is more of a matter of taste and style than a hard and fast rule. I don't think either of us are wrong (or right), and both methods work.

The main thing is that you're consistent.

 

[Nimue]

Got no sources to back me up, but I'd agree with TAS. I think of an ellipsis with a space after it as a sentence end, effectively, but an ellipsis without a space after it as a sentence pause. So a period and a comma, capitalization-wise.

 

[Svrtnsse]

I'm personally more used to the ellipsis as a comma, where it's okay to use it with a space after without beginning with a capital letter on the next word.

I checked the page I linked earlier: Ellipses | Punctuation Rules
It says as follows:

Some writers and editors feel that no spaces are necessary.

Example: I don't know…I'm not sure.

Others enclose the ellipsis with a space on each side.

Example: I don't know … I'm not sure.

Still others put a space either directly before or directly after the ellipsis.

Examples:
I don't know …I'm not sure.
I don't know… I'm not sure.

Edit:
It seems I use ellipses almost exclusively in conversation to denote that the speaker is trailing off, or making a short pause.
I recall having used it at some point in non-conversation, but I'm not finding it at the moment.

 

[Nimue]

Hmm! Of the last two examples, I automatically read the first one as incorrect, missing punctuation, and the second one as two separate sentences. Interesting that there's no conclusive rule on that, though.

 

[Svrtnsse]

I guess it's a bit of an unhelpful example as I is always capitalized.

I much more rarely use ellipses at the start of a word, but I found a few examples:

“You'll have to keep yourself in check now you have a woman to look after. They don't like it when you get useless drunk too often...” He set the urn down and smacked his lips. “...or so I hear.”

Here, the idea is that the last bit is added on to the preceding sentence as a bit of an afterthought.

“...and did you hear they had a bear up in Rastebo this winter? Mauled some sheep and the locals couldn't get rid of it. Had to call in help from all the hillsides they did. Biggest bear he ever saw, old Lennart said, beat him up good it did too.”

Here, the idea is that the listener picks up the sentence somewhere in the middle and they haven't actually heard the first part.

 

[Fyle]

The main thing is that you're consistent.

I like this here. My WIP is finished aside from edits and cutting words down, and I have it lower case throughout.

I would only change it if the large majority here said it was "wrong." As changing it now would be a BIG job for a 59 chapter novel.

Will consider each opinion, thanks!

 

[Nimue]

(For some reason it won't let me quote your quotes, Svrtnsse, but I'm replying to them)

I'd read the first example as correct, though maybe a bit neater as "drunk too often..." "Or so I hear." I feel like the pause is conveyed after the break in dialogue, and when he speaks again it should be its own sentence/fragment.

I'd definitely read the second example as correct. If you're conveying that the preceding words weren't heard by the narrator, the middle of the sentence definitely doesn't need to be capitalized.

However, I don't know that either of those exemplify how ellipses are used in the body of narration or dialogue, when they're not indicating an actual interruption in speech. The thing that really weirds me out about the one-space-no-capitalization idea is the idea of leaving part of a sentence unpunctuated, as with "Could it be ...he didn't know that?" (My fingers tried to type "Could it be...he didn't know that?" very hard) Like, what's going on with the "Could it be"? That's my question.:B

 

[Velka]

It's very interesting to see the different opinions on this delightful little piece of grammar.

The only time I've used ellipses is in academic MLA format, which has an entirely different set of arbitrary rules, but at least there are rules, which I take odd comfort in.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I agree with this:

The main thing is that you're consistent.

As long as the use doesn't cause the reader to navigate the sentence awkwardly, or in a way that changes the author's intent.

 

[Svrtnsse]

@Nimue:
Okay, I think I get what you mean now. It turns out I may not be using it consistently myself, so I'll have to have a look at it and make up my mind about how I want it. I found both

“If... if you say so...”
---
“I see... very nice.”

and

“Poor thing, he must be really tired, sleeping through all that noise you made... You must have worked him hard?”

I think in the second example it's quite clear that it's a new sentence starting, while in the first two examples I'm dealing with sentence fragments.
Like I said. I'll have a think about it, check all occurrences, and then try to make up my mind about the whole thing.

 

[Fyle]

Hmm.

So, after a few opinions are in is "And I said what I want... but I changed my mind." wrong? Or can I get away with it?

I like it, but on a grammar point, I need to do what's right, not what I like.

My gut feeling says it will not break immersion if the reader is engaged in the action thats going on...

 

[Svrtnsse]

My impression here is that the rules are vague enough that you can go with whatever you like.

 

[Nimue]

I just think it erases ambiguity to remove the space or use capitalization--it makes it completely clear whether the sentence has continued or ended.

It wouldn't be an impossible thing to fix, either, just search "..." and hope there's less than a hundred of them.

Personally, I'd go with:

“If... If you say so...”
---
“I see... Very nice.”

and

"And I said what I want...but I changed my mind."


While there is that one site that lists " ..." as a possibility, all other examples I can find on the net either use "..." without spaces or have capitalization after the ellipsis. I dunno.

 

[Svrtnsse]

I just think it erases ambiguity to remove the space or use capitalization--it makes it completely clear whether the sentence has continued or ended.

Yes. I can definitely see where you're coming from.

It wouldn't be an impossible thing to fix, either, just search "..." and hope there's less than a hundred of them.

Nope, I did this after I'd decided to check up on my use of colons and semi-colons. I just searched for the symbols and went through the entire thing. It took some time and effort, but overall it was rather painless.

 

[Fyle]

My impression here is that the rules are vague enough that you can go with whatever you like.

Ya, I had this feeling. But needed some assurance before I left it as is.


Thanks