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Proving that something does NOT exist

Ireth

Myth Weaver
Or something along that line, anyway.

I've come across a bit of a problem in my latest short story WIP. To summarize the plot, an amnesiac valkyrie named Runa goes on a quest to find one of Odin's ravens, who's been kidnapped. While searching in Jotunheim, Runa finds the raven -- and Loki, who is the perpetrator. Loki is also the one responsible for Runa's amnesia, and indirectly so for her becoming a valkyrie (since he commanded the giants who burned down Runa's village and killed her some 810 years prior). As a result Loki believed Runa owed him for giving her wings, and he took her memories of her human life as "payment".

Runa now demands that Loki free Odin's raven; Loki opts to tempt her with the restoration of her memories instead, and Runa wants both. Loki then says he'll return Runa's memories, but he'll take back her wings as a price, as well as something else (ultimately her freedom) in exchange for freeing the raven from its cage.

The problem I have is: because Loki is the ultimate a**hole trickster, the things he tempts Runa with are nothing but shiny orbs that Runa is led to believe have her stolen memories trapped inside them. She doesn't find that out until after Loki has ripped her wings off and trapped her and the raven (whose wing is broken so he can't just fly away) in a deep pit underground, with said orbs left there to mock her. How exactly can I show that the shiny orbs are nothing more or less than that? They're about the size of cherries, and as hard as diamonds despite looking just like glass (because gods, magic, etc.), so just breaking them open to see what's inside won't work.

Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I just get this picture of her banging the orbs together crying for hours and hours until she finally starts to give up.

Unless they break, or she can get them identified by an expert, or Loki tells her, there's just no way for her to prove on her own that they aren't somehow shielding her memories inside them.

But you're also running into a kind of Chekov's gun situation. If you spend too much time with it, you're going to have readers expect that the memories are in fact inside. And that might create a sense of disappointment if you aren't careful.
 
You could have a different similar looking orb that does in fact store memories and when a person looks into the orb they see the memories stored in it, but only if the memories are the person's staring into the orb. Then you get these orbs Runa stares and sees nothing.

Another option is that the orbs do in fact contain her memories but need to be broken, except they can't be.
 

Ireth

Myth Weaver
Well, I was kind of going for the disappointment angle on purpose. The reader, like Runa, is led to believe the orbs do contain her memories. It's only when Runa finds that out that the reader knows too. Loki wouldn't tell her, because he wants her to suffer. I'm thinking of having Runa take the memories with her when she eventually escapes the pit, and someone else (possibly one of the good gods) will verify that the orbs are fake. When Runa finally does get the memories back, it will probably be as a reward for the safe return of Odin's raven. (An alternative idea is that, when Runa's wings are torn off, she uses a feather from one of them to wish for her memories back [as in some versions of the lore, a mortal who seized a valkyrie or swan-maiden's feathered cloak could have a wish granted].) I'm just not sure which would be more narratively satisfying.
 
I feel the one where she busted out and earned them back for getting the raven would be more satisfying. I hate wish granting resolutions unless the wishing resolution actually turns out to screw things up.
 

Ireth

Myth Weaver
I feel the one where she busted out and earned them back for getting the raven would be more satisfying. I hate wish granting resolutions unless the wishing resolution actually turns out to screw things up.

Fair enough, Brian. She's not busting out on her own, either way. The fall into the pit broke her leg, so she can neither fly nor climb out. Luckily, she was smart enough to bring other valkyries who will find and free her. (After getting past the giants and finding their way through the network of underground tunnels leading to the pit, which will take a while.) The only reason Runa wound up alone is because a cave-in cut her off from the rest of her group, and she got lost trying to find another way out. But getting lost led her to the raven, and to Loki.
 

Tom

Istar
I think she should try repeatedly to get her memories out, thinking that perhaps she has to say the right spell or twist or press on the orbs a certain way to unlock them. Finally, she could shatter the orbs with magic out of sheer desperation, only to find them empty. Now that would be a cruel surprise.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
If memory serves, you can smash a diamond into nothing with a hammer. Diamonds may be very hard, but that doesn't mean they're indestructible. Usually the harder the substance the more brittle it is, so probably not the most appropriate descriptor.

Any way, IMHO you're over thinking it. You don't have to absolutely positively 100% prove the orbs contain nothing. If the character reasons out and believes they contain nothing then they don't. I mean you can just have Runa contemplate on them and come to the conclusion that Loki is trying to mess around.

For example, she looks at them, holds them to her cheek, and in her heart realizes the orbs are probably empty. Loki is the master of lies after all. It may be fitting to leave her with her memories, but unable access them, but why would he risk her eventually finding a way to open the orbs up? Best to leave her with nothing, but forever hoping it's something. And if eventually she opens them up after a lifetime of struggle, all the better.

In addition this can work for the story because it leaves you with a bit of tension. That .01% doubt hanging around can be used as a red herring.

Also if you want the orbs to have a bit of significance, maybe have the orbs at the end play a part in brining Loki down, as a weapon, as a detraction, as a way to trip someone up. Just have them be useful in turning things around on Loki. I mean if they're super hard and durable, they would make awesome slingshot ammunition, no?

In the process of using the orbs, as what ever, you can then have them break open as a result to 100% confirm they're empty. I don't think it's necessary, but it would tie up that thread neatly.

my 2cents
 
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I may be missing something but I do get the feeling that Loki has to actually giver her her memories - but not as she would want them. having them trapped inside an unbreakable sphere seems more 'trickstery' than just plain lying - which doesn't seem right.

There has to be a sort 'twisted honour' between the gods and who they make pacts with or nobody would ever deal with them again. part of the 'fun' in stories like this is uncovering the truth and ways around the limits - if he just is an out and out lyer there seems no fun it in.
 

Ireth

Myth Weaver
I think she should try repeatedly to get her memories out, thinking that perhaps she has to say the right spell or twist or press on the orbs a certain way to unlock them. Finally, she could shatter the orbs with magic out of sheer desperation, only to find them empty. Now that would be a cruel surprise.

Runa will definitely try repeatedly, if hope allows her to. But she can't do spells or the like, so that isn't an option.

If memory serves, you can smash a diamond into nothing with a hammer. Diamonds may be very hard, but that doesn't mean they're indestructible. Usually the harder the substance the more brittle it is, so probably not the most appropriate descriptor.

Any way, IMHO you're over thinking it. You don't have to absolutely positively 100% prove the orbs contain nothing. If the character reasons out and believes they contain nothing then they don't. I mean you can just have Runa contemplate on them and come to the conclusion that Loki is trying to mess around.

For example, she looks at them, holds them to her cheek, and in her heart realizes the orbs are probably empty. Loki is the master of lies after all. It may be fitting to leave her with her memories, but unable access them, but why would he risk her eventually finding a way to open the orbs up? Best to leave her with nothing, but forever hoping it's something. And if eventually she opens them up after a lifetime of struggle, all the better.

In addition this can work for the story because it leaves you with a bit of tension. That .01% doubt hanging around can be used as a red herring.

Also if you want the orbs to have a bit of significance, maybe have the orbs at the end play a part in brining Loki down, as a weapon, as a detraction, as a way to trip someone up. Just have them be useful in turning things around on Loki. I mean if they're super hard and durable, they would make awesome slingshot ammunition, no?

In the process of using the orbs, as what ever, you can then have them break open as a result to 100% confirm they're empty. I don't think it's necessary, but it would tie up that thread neatly.

my 2cents

My intent was for the orbs to be indestructible by mundane means. I suppose she could ask Thor to smash the orbs with Mjolnir when she gets back to Asgard, but then there's the risk that breaking the orbs might destroy the memories inside. But it's a moot point, since the orbs don't hold memories anyway.

I don't intend for Loki to be brought down in any way, as unsatisfying as that might be. He's a trickster, so he'd do all he could to weasel out of it anyway. I think it would increase the tension to know that Loki is free to wreak more havoc, and who's to say he won't try something like this again?

I may be missing something but I do get the feeling that Loki has to actually giver her her memories - but not as she would want them. having them trapped inside an unbreakable sphere seems more 'trickstery' than just plain lying - which doesn't seem right.

There has to be a sort 'twisted honour' between the gods and who they make pacts with or nobody would ever deal with them again. part of the 'fun' in stories like this is uncovering the truth and ways around the limits - if he just is an out and out lyer there seems no fun it in.

Loki can do whatever the crap he wants. The way he worded it, he only said he'd give her the spheres themselves, not that they were her memories. He just set things up so she'd assume it was so. Also, Loki is specifically called the Father of Lies (as Penpilot said), so I think it would still fit if he was all-out lying.
 
Hi,

Loki tells her? I mean from my perspective Loki is a trickster who largely plays his tricks for amusement. There would seem to be little point in giving her these memoryless orbs at all unless there's some amusement in it. So my thought would be that he makes the deal, throws her in the pit, and then as a final twist of the knife explains to her that while he's giving her exactly what the terms of the bargain require, he's also cheated her.

As a real life example, post WWII my grandmother (the intellectual genius and financial whizz that she was) sold a manor house for a bank account. She was fleeing after Germany fell and needed swiss currency. Naturally the bank account was empty when she arrived in her new home - but technically she still got her bank account!!!

Cheers, Greg.
 

ascanius

Inkling
I didn't read through all the posts but I had an idea that I thought might interest you. There is a mental disorder where a persons memories have no personal meaning to them. It's like watching a movie about someone elses life for all the meaning it has to the person. It would be like the character knows there is a women in her past that is called mother but lacks all emotional and personal connection/meaning to the person in the memory. In a way she gets her memories back yet at the same time she doesn't. It's like being given an autobiography about your own life instead of memories. I think it would be infuriating to be so very very close yet so very far.
 

K.S. Crooks

Maester
you could have a device that allows someone to see what is within such objects without opening them. I guess a magical type of Xray. It could be there are people who are gifted at seeing/feeling what these orbs contain. Diamonds and crystal refract light so what if when a special light is cast trough the orbs a person see what they contain by looking at the refracted colours of light.
 
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