Make a Scene: Jordan E. Rosenfeld

[Caged Maiden]

So I bought this book on Amazon and it just arrived. I wanted to share my goal with you, fellow scribes, and invite you to discuss scene-writing as a focused element of fantasy craft.

The book is focused on looking in-depth at the kinds of scenes that compose narrative, and writing scenes to achieve specific goals. Some classifications are suspense scenes, contemplative scenes, etc. I'm excited to focus specifically on this one element of writing at this point in my journey, because for all the times a critter has told me my best scenes are the ones in which characters argue, love, or emotionally connect in some other fashion, those same critters advise me that my inner thoughts scenes and open conflict scenes are not working.

I figure I can either keep editing and hoping, or I can learn to distinguish what specifically makes the one set of scenes shine, while no matter how hard I polish, the other set are drab despite my efforts.

If you are experiencing anything similar, or if you just care to join me on the journey, please jump on in and let's get talking about scenes and what make them successful. I intend to delve pretty deep into scene analysis over the next several weeks, and just wanted to share my experiences to hopefully benefit other writers who are also hoping to strengthen their work by focusing on meeting scene goals, determining what makes a scene's pacing slip, and where and how to begin and end scenes.

Best wishes and happy to have you along for the ride...hopefully we get somewhere fun in the end...my map just flew out the window and we're driving on a donut.

I guess to get us started, I'd like to ask a couple basic questions about your guys' scenes. What kinds of scenes play to your strengths? Do you have a scene that really scored a home run? What made it so effective? Do you have a scene you just CAN'T get right, no matter how you rewrite it? What do you think the problem is with it? Too much dialogue? Too many characters? Pacing issues? Setting bogging you down?

 

[Caged Maiden]

One of my classic scene blunders was in a novel about a young soldier who graduated from his academy and was going home to the temple in which he was born. Basically, all I NEEDED, was for the character to become aware that undead were attacking people in this little village, so he could go investigate it (because he's a soldier and a priest and he fancied himself some sort of paladin).

In the first draft, the scene was just...TERRIBLE. I had this set-up, where he went into a tavern and ordered a meal. Then, some raggedy-ass villagers obviously road weary came into the tavern and they counted out coins and ordered three plates of food to feed the seven of them. My MC paid for the people to eat and they invited him to their table, where they relayed a tale of why they had run from their village and the little boy of the group "blabbed" that the undead were what they were running from.

It was...yeah, you get the point. Lame. Sketchy. Contrived. Convenient. All of that and more. It didn't work.

So, I knew I hated the scene, but when I went to edit, I wasn't sure what else to do. How does one become aware that undead creatures are attacking people in a podunk village a hundred miles away?

I got to brainstorming.

I decided rather than having my character (who is actually rather generous) buy their dinners, I'd have him overhear the conversation of some travelers or maybe even bounty hunters at a nearby table. I considered how it would be better if he overheard a conversation, because wasn't that at least a little more plausible than the first version?

No, was the short answer. It was equally contrived, convenient, and most of all lame.

So I skipped past that idea, not even bothering to write it, and went full throttle into what I eventually settled on. Rather than buying an inn room and supper for the night, my young MC (who is actually a priest, though of a low rank) decides to save his few coins and instead visit the temple in the town. He begs for a room and supper, producing his amulet that designates him a priest in a foreign kingdom. The resident priest welcomes the guy in and they have a very brief exchange (rather than a long-winded discussion) and I sort of skip over the afternoon and get right to dinner. When the supper is on the table, the head priest isn't present, so my MC is salivating while trying to be respectfully patient. A commotion alerts the three people in the dining room, so they rush out to the cries from the head priest. A woman is lying on the floor, amidst a group of dirty and road weary peasants. And the woman looks like a zombie, with her nails falling off and her gums bleeding, and her skin discolored and scaly. ANd that's how I introduced the element of her being attacked by the undead. The MC and the priests scramble to help her and they completely forget about dinner, and it's a crazy little short scene that sends my MC out to figure out what's attacking people.

I'm sure after I read a ways into this book, I'll be able to clarify specifically why the rewrite is better than the first, but for now, I'll just call it tension, immediacy, and pacing. Faster pace, an immediate problem that is pretty serious and tense. My character doesn't simply react, he decides to act. And that makes for a better beginning to the next scene, where he's on the road and searching for the undead.

I can't wait to be able to utilize the principles of constructing stronger scenes on more scenes...especially those that I don't even know are weak, or those that I know need something, but damn if I can put my finger on what.

What are some of the things you've learned about crafting engaging scenes?

 

[BWFoster78]

The best scenes are the payoff that you've been setting up for many chapters. Tension and emotion built to a point, and that scene resolves it.

Obviously, those scenes are going to be more powerful than the ones leading up to them and not every scene can be a payoff scene.

So, discounting those, I think I have two types of scenes that I like most in my writing:

1. Ones that are tightly focused on a single point of tension. I reveal the character's goal within the first few paragraphs. Opposition and consequences are apparent. The scene ends at the resolution of the goal and transitions to the next calamity.

2. Really good, deep, emotional exchanges between characters. Not arguments, exactly, but tight dialogue where the POV character is being stymied emotionally.

Great thread.

Thanks.

Brian

 

[Caged Maiden]

@ Brian

I didn't even think about it like that. I guess I was just specifically thinking about the method for getting info to the reader (contemplative scene, a street brawl, or like my example, just picking the right events to lend credence to the situation).

I totally didn't even think about further classifying scenes into more pertinent functions, like you mentioned the payoff scene (which I imagine comes in many forms, maybe romantic encounters or final confrontations, etc.) and how those scenes are even more critical because they deserve more weight and depth, as they aren't just any scene over breakfast, but turning points or conclusions.

Thanks for mentioning that. It's indeed important to make sure each more poignant scene has a proper build-up and that the poignant scene is a fitting and satisfying conclusion to said build-up.

I tend to think about my stories in regard to scenes, rather than chapters or whatever. Since a chapter may include multiple scenes, I find that breaking the story into smaller parts helps me to keep clearer goals and achieve them easier.

 

[MineOwnKing]

When I write dialogue, I try to give the best lines to the female characters.

I find that this increases the pace.

If a male character gets the best lines, then the event tends to lead to action, which can trick a writer into thinking that they should be 'telling' in order to keep a reader engaged.

If the female stays two steps ahead of the male, the male will grumble but eventually oblige her. Therefore, she can keep talking to walk him through the event.

 

[Penpilot]

Thanks for the heads up on the book. Think I'm going to check it out. Sounds interesting. In your example, I definitely like the revised version. To me, it sounds like it'll get the reader more immersed in the world and the people in it by jumping into something happening.

 

[Feo Takahari]

The best scenes are the payoff that you've been setting up for many chapters. Tension and emotion built to a point, and that scene resolves it.

Obviously, those scenes are going to be more powerful than the ones leading up to them and not every scene can be a payoff scene.

I'd like to point out that this is somewhat genre-dependent. For tragedy in particular, the setup may be almost as powerful as the conclusion, knowing that the main characters are walking into an iron cage and screaming at them to get out before the door snaps shut. With each scene, you can revive hope that the heroes will be saved, then ruthlessly crush it.

With that said, I will agree that the scenes I'm most proud of tend to be "payoff" in some way. A neglectful husband admits his wife's death is his fault . . . A phony psychic is forced to realize how many lives he's ruined . . . A little girl who's faced pity and offers of aid from everyone around her lashes out and refuses further help . . . They don't really stand on their own, instead creating a contrast with how that character behaved in previous scenes.

 

[Philip Overby]

Just bought the book for Kindle because why the hell not. I'm always looking for ways to make the most out of scenes, especially in my longer work.

I guess to get us started, I'd like to ask a couple basic questions about your guys' scenes. What kinds of scenes play to your strengths?

I tend to think dialogue heavy scenes that have characters riff off of each other is one of my bigger strengths. This allows me to advance plot, add characterization, and do other things. Sometimes my dialogue scenes may stretch on too much for some, but I sort of take my cues from thrillers and crime fiction more than from fantasy sometimes. I also have fun with action scenes a lot.

Do you have a scene that really scored a home run? What made it so effective?

I can't really think of one right off hand. I'd have to defer to someone who has read my stuff because that's one thing I'm not really clear about. Maybe buying this book will help me determine this better.

Do you have a scene you just CAN'T get right, no matter how you rewrite it? What do you think the problem is with it? Too much dialogue? Too many characters? Pacing issues? Setting bogging you down?

I think sometimes I suffer "From Too Many Character Syndrome" which can definitely make scenes cluttered. That's why I try to do two or three characters in a scene as much as possible. I sort of like to reference how TV does scenes sometimes. You often have maybe two characters discussing a problem they have or whatever. I like those scenes the most because they do the most work. My pacing might sometimes be too fast so it doesn't allow readers to "stew" in the scene long enough before they're getting hit with something else. That's something I'd like to work on some. I don't think I ever suffer from setting problems because I try not to let a setting restrict me in any way.

I've read a couple of books (and read about it from Jim Butcher) about using Scenes and Sequels. It's kind of formulaic the way it works, but Butcher says if you're a beginning writer it's a great way to see how scenes can work easily if you let them. Basically you have something happen, let the characters digest it, and then react to it. Then you keep repeating this until the end of the book. I've used this method before and I think it works pretty well without being predictable. You can always throw curve balls when needed.

 

[Caged Maiden]

@ Phil

Wow, I hope the book is good, because I've only read the introduction and I'd feel badly if people bought it upon my recommendation, since I only just opened it. However, I'm glad you'll be on the journey with me as I read it and discuss the contents here on this forum. I'm hoping to take this opportunity as an open learning experience and to share the things I learn sort of how I suggested Brian post his editing journey, so folks can learn with me and maybe expound on their personal thoughts or how they do things differently.

I like sharing the journey as much as I can, because I think we're all in this rough market, trying to find those winning strategies to make our stories compelling, amusing and interesting for future readers.

Thanks everyone who is following this thread. You all make MS the best writing forum. Keep up the great work!

 

[Chessie]

I'm checking out the book, too. I'm still reading John Truby's 22 Steps book but I can read two at a time, right? I'll return to this thread to join in with thoughts. Strenghtening scenes is always a good thing.

 

[skip.knox]

There are so many elements--dialog, description, conflict, setup. The successful scene is the one where *all* the elements are strong.

Like Phil, I can't really speak to my own work, but I can talk about what works for me in what other people have written. And there I find a real variety. We could stick with LoTR, since we've pretty much all read it.

Some scenes are vivid because they are exotic. I'm thinking of Old Man Willow, or Lothlorien. It's the pure fantastical of fantasy. Other scenes work because they are a payoff. Others because they are a surprise (Gandalf in Moria).

But I think there are some common elements. One is a strong sense of place. The imagery is powerful. The descriptions put you in the place.

Another is a strong sense of the moment. You feel peril or joy or relief or dismay. In this regard, I'm coming to think of scenes much as Poe talked about the short story. The aim is to convey a *single* emotion. Every word works to bring the reader to that one emotion. Don't try to do too much in any given scene. I'm often guilty of building scenes that try to do too much.

Character is crucial. I have to care about the character(s) involved in this particular time and place. Here again I think simplicity is important. The best scenes are ones where we are right next to the character, or even in their head, seeing and feeling right along with them. The weaker scenes are the ones where we are merely watching.

Eh. That's my two florins' worth.

 

[BWFoster78]

When I read a book and the author does something interesting, I try to figure out how he did it so I can replicate it. Here are a couple of scenes that I tried:

1. I read a Nicholas Sparks book trying to get a better grasp on how to evoke an emotional response. Unfortunately, I didn't make progress there, but I did notice something cool. He had a group of scenes that didn't have much tension - basically the protagonist and her love interest getting to know one another. In order to increase tension, he included a scene from the antagonist's viewpoint that set up this giant sword hanging over the protagonist's head. So, as the protagonist goes about her daily business without any knowledge of what's about to happen, tension is produced on the reader's part in a don't-go-down-that-dark-stairwell-into-the-basement kinda way.

2. John Ringo does something in almost all of his books that I find really cool. He has a character praise all the really cool stuff that the protagonist has done, saying how impossible it was and how awesome the protagonist is. I think it produces a really cool moment for the reader.

I tried both of these types of scenes in my book. It'll be interesting to see if they worked at all like I intended...

 

[Caged Maiden]

Well folks, I'm up to chapter five (or six, I forget) in the book and so far, it's all common sense stuff for me at this point in my journey. I'm not making notes or anything, but after I read the whole book, I'll re-skim the concepts I most want to work on in my own writing and try to apply the things I think I can strengthen. That being said, for newer writers who struggle with certain things, I can see this book being very helpful. Of those items, I'd like to note:

• Item descriptions--I've read manuscripts where writers get bogged down on the details. They describe the cold, hard doorknob, the buzzing light bulb, the warm-hued wooden paneling, the plush burgundy carpet beneath their feet...and on and on. I think this is a great little section of this book for those people who tend to ramble when setting the scene and can't seem to find a balance between describing background setting and over-doing it to an uninteresting degree. This helps define that balance.
• Using setting to create a tone--This bit was good in that it helped to explain how creating a setting by using certain items can help to establish emotional connections with the MC. I think sometimes this is a concept that doesn't go well in first drafts, but learning this skill certainly shows in a polished edit. Some of the best stories I've ever read use this concept perfectly to set a tone right from the get-go, using items and descriptions through the character filter that immediately resonate with a reader. If you're looking for ways to tell a reader your character is sad or scared or melancholy, without coming right out and saying it, consider how setting can convey those things more subtly.

I haven't gotten a whole lot from the book yet, but then I was find forking out the cash if it only led to one big "aha moment", so i'm not disappointed. If anything, it confirms the tactics I've come up with on my own are working at least in theory and it validates my reasoning, even if I need to go back and edit with a little more conviction, now that I have permission to use, say, setting to set an emotional tone through subtle description.

I'm really anticipating the section that deals specifically with how to stage and execute specific types of scenes. I think that's the main reason I bought this book, and so far, it feels like a good refresher course, but no really new information.

More to come as I delve further into this work. I'm not trying to review this book for the purpose of promoting it in any way, but I like to at least share how helpful I find writing advice, whether from a book or blog. I've never read a writing manual of any kind before (except I did start a book on how to outline, but I only made it a few pages...much like my outlines...before I abandoned it). I'll try to keep future posts relevant to the crafting of scenes and specifically share which items I really take to heart.

 

[Philip Overby]

I bought it as well and haven't found anything new really so far, but it did reinvigorate my passion for scenes/sequels (which I think work pretty well). Since then, I outlined a short story using this method and it's caught my attention much more than some stories I've been just winging lately. After having a discussion with a friend last night about making sure, especially with short stories, to hit the reader in the face with a problem right off the bat, I'm more interested in going back and tightening up some shorts I planned to publish soon.

 

[Caged Maiden]

@ Brian

Yeah, I know what you mean. Sometimes I come up with something I think is really naturally good, and other times I try to do something with all my good intentions, but it fails to impress betas. I guess that just sums up the trick of "getting it right", since we all have good ideas and there are a thousand ways to do the things we're trying to...but sometimes just a couple sentences can ruin a good build-up or a single line of dialogue out of character can ruin a reader's immersion of a scene.

I've made my fair share of blunders, most often of the variety of: I try to create an emotional moment, using adjectives and adverbs to modify verbs of what's happening, and then I hammer my point home with some dialogues and reactions on the characters' parts...but then betas tell me it reads as melodramatic. So I scale it back, only to be told that it's lacking emotion. It's a tough balance to find, so hang in there. An editor will help, but also betas in your target demographic. Sometimes, it's just the nit-picky elements that either make it a home run or a strikeout. Don't I know it. Nothing's worse than having a reader bite hook, line, and sinker on one scene and feel the stiff-arm of my overwrought narrative that jolts them right out of their immersion with a botched follow-up scene.

Tricky, indeed, but that's why we keep working on it and eventually say, "I've done the best I can and MOST of my betas get it at this point, so it's time to call it good."

Best wishes and thanks for sharing.

 

[Caged Maiden]

@ Phil

Thanks for sharing. That's pretty much how I'm feeling too. I think this could be a great resource for newer writers and people who specifically struggle with (as you've read plenty of it in my first drafts) where to begin a scene and where to end it. That's a topic I could have been more familiar with in past years, so again, for those of us who need a little pep talk to remind us of those things, the book is okay, but for newer writers actively struggling with scene issues and specifically parameters, this would be far more valuable.

 

[BWFoster78]

BTW, I bought this book a long time ago (pre ereader days!). I actually outlined it for quick reference. If any of you who have purchased the book want it, email me at [email protected].