• Welcome to the Fantasy Writing Forums. Register Now to join us!

How much are you willing to forgive to the hero?

Status
Not open for further replies.

fantastic

Minstrel
In a world that is quite harsh, how much can hero do and you will still consider him a hero?

By that I mean, what actions would make you not like the character anymore, stop cheering for him, stop caring about him, not wanting him to win, start hating him, or simply like him less.

What would you be willing to forgive?

Swearing
Threatening
Stealing

Beating someone
Killing someone
Raping someone
Torturing someone

Assuming he did it to someone evil?

What if he did this to an innocent person?

What do you think would be too much for you to continue genuinely liking the character and still consider him a good or at least, likable?
 

Russ

Istar
In a world that is quite harsh, how much can hero do and you will still consider him a hero?

By that I mean, what actions would make you not like the character anymore, stop cheering for him, stop caring about him, not wanting him to win, start hating him, or simply like him less.

What would you be willing to forgive?

Swearing
Threatening
Stealing

Beating someone
Killing someone
Raping someone
Torturing someone

Assuming he did it to someone evil?

What if he did this to an innocent person?

What do you think would be too much for you to continue genuinely liking the character and still consider him a good or at least, likable?

I can get past all of those quite easily with the exception of raping someone. I struggle to imagine a justification for that act in my worldview.
 

Philster401

Maester
I think the answer to this question is it depends on the story, the character, and the reader.

First this depends on your definition of a hero and morals. I also have to ask do you mean hero or protagonist? Because if you mean hero raping a person that to most people would not fit their definition of a hero. Also the murdering of innocents could most likely be forgiven depending on the situation.

Here area a few examples of a hero torturing someone. In Supernatural Dean Winchester tortures demons and in Inheritance Murtagh tortures Nasuada because he is forced to so it all depends on the situation

Then there is Deathnote where the main character goes around "cleansing" the world by killing criminals and the occasional bystander.
 

MineOwnKing

Maester
One of the basic rules is to not write about a developed character doing something inconsistent with his/her arc.

Now, if you write about a character that consistently does bad things but makes a self sacrifice within a scene which is redeeming, does that make him a hero also?

Depends on the novel.
 

fantastic

Minstrel
I can get past all of those quite easily with the exception of raping someone. I struggle to imagine a justification for that act in my worldview.

Well, if torturing can have a justification, I assume most other things could have some sort of reason. But I wonder, do you need a justification for any of those things? What if these things are not unusual in their world or the hero does it for no special reason?

I think the answer to this question is it depends on the story, the character, and the reader.

First this depends on your definition of a hero and morals. I also have to ask do you mean hero or protagonist? Because if you mean hero raping a person that to most people would not fit their definition of a hero. Also the murdering of innocents could most likely be forgiven depending on the situation.

Here area a few examples of a hero torturing someone. In Supernatural Dean Winchester tortures demons and in Inheritance Murtagh tortures Nasuada because he is forced to so it all depends on the situation

Then there is Deathnote where the main character goes around "cleansing" the world by killing criminals and the occasional bystander.

I mean the protagonist. But I use the word hero to make it clear that he is the good guy or at least on the side of the good or less evil.

Well, if one is forced to do so you might not blame him. But what if he does this of his own will?

One of the basic rules is to not write about a developed character doing something inconsistent with his/her arc.

Now, if you write about a character that consistently does bad things but makes a self sacrifice within a scene which is redeeming, does that make him a hero also?

Depends on the novel.

Yes, but the point is would you still like someone, if he does this?

Would you like a character who kills, rapes and tortures but at the same time is heroic and saves many people risking his own life?
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
...what actions would make you not like the character anymore, stop cheering for him, stop caring about him, not wanting him to win, start hating him, or simply like him less.

What would you be willing to forgive?....

What do you think would be too much for you to continue genuinely liking the character and still consider him a good or at least, likable?
I'm going to take your question and head down a different road with my answer, because it really just depends on how you write the story...how well you handle the events and characters.

The issues I have with your question lies within the premise that your reader must like the protagonist. You used the word hero, I know, but I'm assuming you mean your "hero" to be the protagonist of your story.

Truth is, the reader doesn't necessarily need to like the character. Yes, I know, many people will tell you they won't read about characters they don't like, and that's fine for them. However, many readers, and I am one of them, only require that your characters are interesting. Yes, even the protagonist.

Many of my favorite books feature protagonists which are less than admirable, or even likable. They aren't the kind of people I'd want showing up to the family barbecue. However, as fictional characters, the're fascinating to read about.

So, I recommend you focus your efforts on making the character interesting.

That second part to this, if you wish to create compelling characters, is to make them sympathetic. By "sympathetic" I mean characters with some qualities and traits all readers can relate to. What are some things common to the human condition? Look to those as a starting point. Do we love our children, parents, or significant others? Do we all wish to find love? Do we wish to be valued, respected, or admired? Think about the types of things we all share, regardless of how we may be separated in the world by geography, ethnicity, religion, or any other potential surface differences. Make your characters sympathetic by illustrating qualities the reader sees in themselves and they'll grow to understand the character on a deeper level, if not condone their behavior.

Think about a character like Dexter, the serial killer. Would you want him showing up at your daughter's birthday party? Probably not, and yet many people find the character fascinating. Why? Because they develop sympathy for him AND he's interesting. Ok, so how does the character generate sympathy & why do people find him interesting?
Sympathetic traits:
1) He has a sister that loves him and, in turn, he shares affection for him in an odd way.
2) He has a son he wishes to protect and nurture. (Though this may not completely fit with psychopathology)
3) He is an expert at his job, an interesting job as a blood splatter crime scene analyst. He is admired and respected for his expertise.
4) His condition is caused by an early trauma, the loss of his mother in terrible, bloody fashion.

Why is he interesting?
In addition to the above, he lives a double life. He keeps up normal appearances while living a dark, secret existence at night, killing other serial killers. His violent urges are controlled by a code he lives by, which keeps him from harming innocents. What isn't interesting about that? Haven't we all, at one time or another, wished we could inflict some measure of justice on the types of people that would hurt innocents? Well, Dexter acts on those urges, and we find that fascinating.

In the end, focus on making your character interesting & make them relatable by giving them sympathetic traits. That's all that matters.
 
Last edited:

X Equestris

Maester
In a world that is quite harsh, how much can hero do and you will still consider him a hero?

By that I mean, what actions would make you not like the character anymore, stop cheering for him, stop caring about him, not wanting him to win, start hating him, or simply like him less.

What would you be willing to forgive?

Swearing
Threatening
Stealing

Beating someone
Killing someone
Raping someone
Torturing someone

Assuming he did it to someone evil?

What if he did this to an innocent person?

What do you think would be too much for you to continue genuinely liking the character and still consider him a good or at least, likable?

Rape is a deal breaker. There is no instance where rape is justifiable, no matter how evil the victim is.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Rape is always a turn off for many people, especially when it's the MC and if we're expected to in any way sympathize with the character. I think there's two reasons for that. The first, it's really hard to imagine any kind of justification for rape. There's no raping somebody in self-defense. And the second, it's a little too real and close to home for many people who have related fears and experiences.

Other than that, it depends on the character and whether we're supposed to like and forgive him for these things. You can have a character who commits murder. Just don't try and make me think that's okay.
 

Tom

Istar
I agree with X Equestris. Rape is the cut-off point for me; anything else I can swallow if the hero's actions are justified. But not rape. Any sort of sexual assault turns the main character from hero to villain in my eyes.
 

Russ

Istar
Well, if torturing can have a justification, I assume most other things could have some sort of reason. But I wonder, do you need a justification for any of those things? What if these things are not unusual in their world or the hero does it for no special reason?

But I am a potential reader and you asked me the question as a reader, not as a inhabitant of a world where rape is common place. I find it almost impossible to imagine a situation where I as a reader will "cheer for" someone who has committed a rape, no matter how shitty the world they inhabit or how many lives they save etc.

As a reader you should not expect me to completely internalize amoral or immoral cultures that make up your world.

I think that there are rare, rare exceptions to this.

The only character that raped someone I ever cheered for was Thomas Covenant, and it was so brilliantly set up I struggle to think how someone could carry that act off so powerfully and regretfully again.

On the other hand I was quite willing to cheer for Elric who both committed incest (with this cousin) and torture.
 

fantastic

Minstrel
I can see most people are against rape even if there is a justification.

From what I understand, you don't mind torturing, if it has a justification.

What if the hero tortures an innocent person simply because he occasionally likes to hurt people but makes up for it by saving many people and otherwise being a hero?
 

Tom

Istar
I can see most people are against rape even if there is a justification.

Listen. There is no justification for rape. It's a cruel, selfish act that forcibly strips a victim of their right to control their own body. Murder is not always intentional, but rape is. I don't care how upright a hero is otherwise, or what circumstances he was under--the moment he commits rape, I am no longer rooting for him.

I know I may be coming across as somewhat prickly about it, but this issue needs to be stressed. Rape cannot be justified, ever, no matter the circumstances.
 

fantastic

Minstrel
Listen. There is no justification for rape. It's a cruel, selfish act that forcibly strips a victim of their right to control their own body. Murder is not always intentional, but rape is. I don't care how upright a hero is otherwise, or what circumstances he was under--the moment he commits rape, I am no longer rooting for him.

I know I may be coming across as somewhat prickly about it, but this issue needs to be stressed. Rape cannot be justified, ever, no matter the circumstances.

This was not really my point but what if someone was forced to rape someone?
 

X Equestris

Maester
I can see most people are against rape even if there is a justification.

I challenge you to name one situation where rape is justified.

As for the scenario you lay out, I find a character that takes pleasure in inflicting suffering on others to be virtually impossible to sympathize with. It doesn't matter what other supposedly heroic acts this person does, it won't make up for torturing someone just for kicks.
 

Laurence

Inkling
I wonder if a real life torture and rape victim would say torture was more justifiable...

In my opinion torture is as unforgivable as rape (consider that both acts/the physical and psychological effects of both could last a lifetime).
 

Tom

Istar
@fantastic:

Okay, let's run with that.

So here we've got our hero. Let's call him Hugh. So Hugh has been captured by the Dark Lord...Luther, or whatever. Luther is cruel and sadistic, just like a dark lord should be. He presents Hugh with a choice: either he can rape that poor, terrified, shivering young woman chained up in the corner, or he can die.

So let's say that Hugh is Very Important to the Plot. If he dies, the whole Side of Good or whatever goes down in flames. And he knows this. Because of that, he chooses to rape the woman instead of being killed.

Is he at fault for raping her? Yes. Did he take away her control over her own body? Yes. Was the choice of rape or death enough to justify his actions? No.

Rape is wrong, no matter what the circumstances. I don't care if Hugh was going to die if he didn't, I still object to his raping of a helpless woman. That was wrong, even if it was necessary, and I will still stop rooting for him because of it. Even if he can somehow redeem himself in my eyes, I will still harbor some aversion to him because of what he did. Because it can't be justified.
 

fantastic

Minstrel
I challenge you to name one situation where rape is justified.

As for the scenario you lay out, I find a character that takes pleasure in inflicting suffering on others to be virtually impossible to sympathize with. It doesn't matter what other supposedly heroic acts this person does, it won't make up for torturing someone just for kicks.

Well, someone could be forced to rape someone. Or let say, there is a situation where not raping someone, will prevent saviour of the world from being born.
 

Tom

Istar
Well, someone could be forced to rape someone. Or let say, there is a situation where not raping someone, will prevent saviour of the world from being born.

In that case, I'd rather the savior stay unborn. The world can save itself, as it has many times both in our past, and in the past of various fantasy worlds.

Still no justification for rape.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top