Writing a Prologue

[Nyx]

Yeah I have been on a few writing sites that didn't like anything outside the norm.
I might just do what you said with either having it as chapter one and having the time jump or doing the flashbacks.
thanks :3

[Lord Darkstorm]

The reason so many people have problems with things like flashbacks and frames is that they are often times overused, used for the wrong reasons, and more often than not...done badly. So most people that have read a few dozen badly done flashbacks, or the pointless frame that isn't even needed, they tend to say not to use them rather than try and explain how to properly use them.

The problem most people have with flashbacks is that they can cause confusion and throw the reader out of the story to figure out what is going on. That is where many people go wrong I think. A flashback is easy to just toss in, but the reader has to be taken to the previous point in time in a way that lets them know that is where they are going, and then brought back in the same manner. Sound simple, but it is very easy to either use a cliche lead in/lead out, or just mangle it. The other thing many people have done is add things that don't really have that much importance. My current novel I'm trying to get the rest of the background for so I can finally write it the way it should be will have about 80 to 90 percent more background information that the reader will ever know about. The problem many of us face is after all the work we put into building the world the characters will live in, we feel that a great number of those details have to be important to the reader...since so much time was put into creating it. Most of it though, isn't important to the reader, it's important to the writer so that the world they portray has the proper depth and feel it should. When we know all the details, the writing will show it, and the reader will find the story better than if we don't. Forcing all that background noise into the story tends to make it full of junk and most often only serves to annoy the reader.

These are things I've seen over and over, as do many others who do crits on forums. I can understand, and am sometimes guilty of, not being patient and helping the writer to understand that it isn't that the use of a flashback is wrong, but too often it isn't needed. Hearing that you can't possibly know good writing (since the person you just finished giving a crit for is ticked you didn't praise them for it), it starts to get easier to just say, don't do this, over try and explain why to someone who probably won't listen. The proper thing would be, don't use it till you learn when, where, and why first.

[Nyx]

First of all Lord Darkstorm, I have to thank you for taking the time to give me advice and write these posts for me. It's very much appreciated. Now lets see if I can do your post justice.

The reason so many people have problems with things like flashbacks and frames is that they are often times overused, used for the wrong reasons, and more often than not...done badly. So most people that have read a few dozen badly done flashbacks, or the pointless frame that isn't even needed, they tend to say not to use them rather than try and explain how to properly use them.

I was made to read a book in school that was filled with flashbacks, clichés, and massive time jumps that jumped important events. You were still supposed to know what was going on though. I have that book to thank for putting the fear of god in me that my writing would turn out that bad.

The problem most people have with flashbacks is that they can cause confusion and throw the reader out of the story to figure out what is going on. That is where many people go wrong I think. A flashback is easy to just toss in, but the reader has to be taken to the previous point in time in a way that lets them know that is where they are going, and then brought back in the same manner. Sound simple, but it is very easy to either use a cliche lead in/lead out, or just mangle it. The other thing many people have done is add things that don't really have that much importance.

I've tried to write a few flashbacks today as practice and I totally agree that they are extremely hard. I doubt I will be including any until I am a lot better at writing them. I don't want to mangle it as you put it. I love that word I also agree that adding "filler" really ruins a good meaty story. I feel my OCD slipping into my writing a lot, which is a blessing as it makes me cut a lot of stuff I like but was never really needed. It will be an improvement in the long run :3

My current novel I'm trying to get the rest of the background for so I can finally write it the way it should be will have about 80 to 90 percent more background information that the reader will ever know about. The problem many of us face is after all the work we put into building the world the characters will live in, we feel that a great number of those details have to be important to the reader...since so much time was put into creating it. Most of it though, isn't important to the reader, it's important to the writer so that the world they portray has the proper depth and feel it should.

High five?
I've been building my world for 3 years now and I am not even close to finishing. Is it still fun for you? I'm always interested in how others build their worlds. I know that not even 1% of what I have now will make it into my books. I have the belief that if I don't know my world inside out, how am I supposed to portray it vividly to the reader. Leaving my world after 12 books though might be a bit hard for me lol.

When we know all the details, the writing will show it, and the reader will find the story better than if we don't.

I think I might print that out and stick it on my wall by my desk.

These are things I've seen over and over, as do many others who do crits on forums. I can understand, and am sometimes guilty of, not being patient and helping the writer to understand that it isn't that the use of a flashback is wrong, but too often it isn't needed. Hearing that you can't possibly know good writing (since the person you just finished giving a crit for is ticked you didn't praise them for it), it starts to get easier to just say, don't do this, over try and explain why to someone who probably won't listen.

Well I totally understand that many people don't want to spend their time trying to help people, when in the past when they have spent a long time writing a crit to help somebody they have had it thrown back in their face. It never makes sense to me as 9 times out of 10 it will be good advice that will teach the person something and improve the story.

The proper thing would be, don't use it till you learn when, where, and why first.

Another great bit of advice :3

[Lord Darkstorm]

I've been building my world for 3 years now and I am not even close to finishing. Is it still fun for you?

Yes, and each new world is. While I read a lot of fantasy, I write mostly scifi. Strang maybe, but I have two colony worlds now, the one I'm working on has been on and off in creation for about four years. I have all the technologies down, I have a nice list of major and minor characters, the major characters are fairly well defined, and I'm working through the others. I still need to do a bit of playing with maps of the main city and some of the areas I plan on dragging one of the main characters through. One detail that isn't actually mentioned in the book, but will have at least a descriptive word or two, is that the main capitol of the world is a plateau which was originally the top of a mountain. When the colony ship arrived, it melted the top to form it's own landing site. Such a tidbit of knowedge is many thousands of years old, and no one really know it. But when people actually walk down the streets, they are walking on metal roads (high iron content) that is almost perfectly flat. While I could find a way of adding it to the story, only the detail of the top of the plateau being smooth iron will be mentioned. Why it is, and how it came to be isn't important, just the little detail which adds a bit of detail and a very minor question and a tiny bit of depth. With hundreds more little details, the writing should take on that additional depth and believability that makes it feel real in the mind of the reader.

I sometimes wonder if all the work is going to be worth it, but every time I've put a great deal of effort into knowing the world and characters I'm writing about, it show. When I don't, it shows too...but not in a way I like.

[Nyx]

I have been wanting to try Sci-Fi but I am not well enough read in the genre to do my plot any justice at the minute. Your colony's sound really interesting especially the tiny little detail about the roads.

Do you draw your maps? It's something I really need to try to do with my world.

[Lord Darkstorm]

maps are just to know where things are. While I do like maps in books sometimes, they aren't really a requirement for me. I get confused if I don't know where things are, and sometimes new ideas come when putting them together. If you are designing a village, what would a village need? Blacksmith? probably. A mill, yah, but what drives the grinding wheels? water? horses...those types of things. As you get going, you find out where things are, and who's about the place. For a overnight stay at the inn, probably not needed, but spending a month, it is worth knowing what's about.

Cities are bigger, have more places, more areas. I have a city on a plateau, and below it is more, down to the roots of the mountain. Some people live there entire lives never seeing the sun (or the planets star). Those maps are usually more general, with areas defined and only places where a scene might take place being more detailed.

[Nyx]

Ah I thought you meant maps as in drawing them :3
I haven't even got down to my villages yet, I'm still organising where all the kingdoms are, tightening my plot writing mythology etc.
I can't draw to save myself so if I ever do draw myself maps of my world they wont be leaving my notebook lol. I am more of a visual person so even if its just lines on a piece of paper it would be better for myself to get it down for reference.

[DameiThiessen]

I've got four different prologues that I need to find space for. So my solution is going to be to sprinkle them within the story.

For example, a chapter could be a character telling one of them (maybe in first person POV). That might be a good way to explain something without a huge infodump while still establishing character. I want to tell the majority of the story as an omnipresent observer so the reader can observe body language and action and infer things for themselves, so having a character tell the background is essential. You could do this too with your story.

[Lord Darkstorm]

I want to tell the majority of the story as an omnipresent observer so the reader can observe body language and action and infer things for themselves, so having a character tell the background is essential. You could do this too with your story.

The few onmi books I've read that did work, it wasn't camera on the wall, it was in the characters heads, and feeling their feelings. Just watching them like a camera on the wall won't give you the same impact.

[DameiThiessen]

The few onmi books I've read that did work, it wasn't camera on the wall, it was in the characters heads, and feeling their feelings. Just watching them like a camera on the wall won't give you the same impact.

It's challenging for sure. You have to be very meticulous when describing body language, tone, and subtle actions. But if course it's not all fly on the wall - you add in what the character sees as well. For example, in one scene there's a party and the MC is looking around at everybody. You see a boy and a girl together. He's talking and smiling, and she's not. But then you see her smile a little bit. You don't actually hear what they're saying or know what they're talking about, you just watch them. And you know from little things like that that she's starting to like him. The MC doesn't say anything or think anything about it, just the reader does. There isn't anybody's opinion or thought interrupting the scene, and that's why I like it.

Anyway, the point that I was making was that because I write like that but I still want to give some information on the background of the story, I would need a character to tell it, because there is no narrator in the book. Just an omnipresent observer. (But hell, I change my mind so often who knows if that will stick xP)