When Earth names intrude

[Demesnedenoir]

I think I have an issue where there isn't a good answer, or at least, there isn't a perfect answer. So, just curious what folks think.

I have a rather complex system of magical elements and how they interact with various gemstones... When I created this system, I considered there to be 396 gem quality stones. So what's the problem? Well, not all gems have cool names like diamond, ruby, topaz... there are a good number of stones out there named after Earth geographical locations... Tanzanite or Afghanite come to mind pretty quickly. Sure, I might refer to them by more scientific names, but they lose all context and meaning to anybody but hard core rock hounds. I could call Tanzanite a blue zoisite, but yeah, not much fun. I could also make up names, but then even the hard core rock hounds don't know what I'm talking about unless I say something like "Jin held up the fist sized bulderun gem, a blue zoisite....". For that matter, even names like zoisite sound more "earthy" than diamond or ruby.

So! When trying to avoid Earth terminology, I'm a bit torn here. I could certainly make up a pile of names and assign them to stones, but want do you folks think? Do Earth names screw everything in this instance?

 

[Svrtnsse]

I think there's a saying that goes something along the lines of "familiarity breeds contempt" and I think it's probably true in spirit. That doesn't mean you shouldn't call a smeerp a rabbit.

Out of all those types of stone how many will actually figure in the story?

Also, how familiar do you expect the average reader to be with the more scientific sounding names of real world stones? They may be familiar with them, or they may not. If they're not familiar, they'll probably just think they sound like plausible names for rocks. Anything that ends with -ite is a rock, right? Tanzanite, zoisite, stalagmite, marmite, etc etc

Someone who isn't clued up on rocks, probably won't be able to tell the difference. However, someone who IS clued up on rocks could get a little bit extra out of the story from the names you pick. It could be an opportunity to give a little nod to those people, like an easter egg of sorts? A secret signal from you to them.

Or something...

 

[Fluffypoodel]

I've never run into that serious a problem with it. Usually it's just a quick name change and then I'm off. With that many gem combinations though I might cut out all of the geographic stones and replace them with non intrusive names. Take diamond. There is your clear diamond butter there are other colors too. I'm not a geologist but I bet that changes their makeup at least a little bit. Seems like an easy solution as remembering 396 differect types of rock and what they do sounds like a tall order.

 

[SeverinR]

I don't think using the "real" names would alter the story. It would also be a problem to identify to the reader that a "Hardstone" is the same as a "diamond" and so on. If the reader doesn't know the value of a stone, then the writer will have to suggest it's value in some way. You say ruby, most people know it is valuable. You say a redstone, it's value is unknown.

Most fantasy writing has some Earth common "givens". So we don't have to totally recreate everything and then explain to the reader what everything is and what it equals in the real world. Maybe have a nickname used by the uneducated and then have the educated share with the reader what it really is. One author had the slave digger call the valuable stones; "sparklies"

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Calling a diamond a diamond isn't a problem IMO, but Tanzanite named for Tanzania, or Afghanite discovered in Afghanistan... it isn't quite as bad as serving french fries, because it sounds more technical, but still... LOL.

The bad part is that due to the correlation of the crystal structure and the elements they associate with, it's difficult to work around with less Earthy names without going full renaming crazy. Certain crystal structures exist in relatively few stones, and not in stones with cool names, so difficult to avoid names. The intruding gems I haven't been able to avoid (so far) are as follows: jeremejevite, pezzottaite (named after discoverers). These aren't horrible, but they still bug me just a bit. The two mentioned previously are more aggravating.

Just chatting about it and reading responses is leading to ideas on how to work around these names... hrrm. Oh the silly things I torture myself with, LOL.

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

Here's what I think about the matter: Readers in the know might have a good laugh about the names you use, but I wouldn't think that would make them put down the book if the story is interesting. Otoh, most people aren't going to know the properties of stones even if you tell them the correct names, so for the majority of your readers, I'd expect it wouldn't matter if you used all real names or made up some. If you don't want the people in the know to laugh at your use of Earth-based names in a secondary world, then change the names that need changing. If some quality of a stone is important to your story, you'll need to describe it in your story anyway, because most of your readers probably will not know the qualities associated with each stone type even if you use their real names.

 

[Svrtnsse]

If I'd read something where there's a powerful mineral called jeremejevite I'd probably have felt that the writer overdid it a bit as far as making up silly names goes.

EDIT: in other words, go for it - it's the lesser of two "evils"

 

[Heliotrope]

Yeah, this is one of those really tricky things...

Like, if a writer invented a new 'race' of humanoids with pointy ears who live in the forest and hunt with bows and consider themselves of either a "high" or "low" class... but called them "Oakards" or something like that I would be all WTF, they are just elves with a fancy name. Just call them Elves already and stop trying to be fancy.

But... because you are talking about rocks from earth, but not on earth, I would be one of those people who would think "ummm, yeah, Tansanite is from Tansania...." and that would ruin the story for me.

When fantasy authors call a rabbit a rabbit, or a horse a horse, that doesn't bother me so much because rabbits are not named after anything specifically "earthy"... But when you are using words like "Tansanite" it would bug me.

I would probably try to name it something else based on the proporties, but try to eliminate the earthy place name.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

No doubt a lot of the names sounds sillier than the ones I'd make up, LOL.

If I'd read something where there's a powerful mineral called jeremejevite I'd probably have felt that the writer overdid it a bit as far as making up silly names goes.

EDIT: in other words, go for it - it's the lesser of two "evils"

 

[Demesnedenoir]

There's a new section in the early part of the book where Elilês is looking at a powdered gem mural (at a shrine) depicting the Ten Winds with 10 gems, where the names of stones are rattled off. I'll feel as bad as GRRM rattling off house banners for that, heh heh. Once I call Tanzanite "X", Diamond almost must become something else... which makes it all the more irritating... I mean entertaining.

Measurement systems are another oddity, the editor has point blank told me that for the feel of the book I've got, to avoid our own systems. So, I've been working on a system related to Roman measures. That one I'm finding fun.

Yeah, this is one of those really tricky things...

Like, if a writer invented a new 'race' of humanoids with pointy ears who live in the forest and hunt with bows and consider themselves of either a "high" or "low" class... but called them "Oakards" or something like that I would be all WTF, they are just elves with a fancy name. Just call them Elves already and stop trying to be fancy.

But... because you are talking about rocks from earth, but not on earth, I would be one of those people who would think "ummm, yeah, Tansanite is from Tansania...." and that would ruin the story for me.

When fantasy authors call a rabbit a rabbit, or a horse a horse, that doesn't bother me so much because rabbits are not named after anything specifically "earthy"... But when you are using words like "Tansanite" it would bug me.

I would probably try to name it something else based on the proporties, but try to eliminate the earthy place name.

 

[Penpilot]

For me, with stuff like this I err on the side of clarity and simplicity. I'd just use the earth names. If your story is engaging nobody will care if they even notice at all.

I mean you can twist yourself up with stuff like this. If you think about it how many people names have geographic origins? Eg Shannon. Are you going to avoid all those names too?

My two cents.

 

[Heliotrope]

Yep. I'm with your editor. And yep, the banners always bugged me but in your case I think it's necessary.

 

[TheKillerBs]

I'd avoid the situation at all costs, but if push came to shove and I absolutely had to use things with earth names, I absolutely would use the earth names. I agree with Penpilot that clarity and simplicity are very important.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

This can be a slippery slope of you look too far into it. Eventually you'll have to question why your characters are using English words at all.

When I read fantasy, I often do it with the assumption of an unspoken rule that what I'm reading has had to be translated from an unknown language into English. So, maybe your characters have their own names for all the gems in their own languages, but they're being translated into the closest English equivalent.

Do we have to know the names of all 300-whatever of those gems?! You could just avoid the painfully obviously Earth-derived ones as much as possible. Be more sparing in your use of explicit names for them.

I wouldn't blink at tanzanite in a fantasy novel. Afghanite...that's tougher. I know what tanzanite looks like and the name has connotations apart from the place name derivation. Afghanite, I don't even know what that is so all I have is the place name connotation. I'm aware that some are nitpickier than me, but you can't please everyone. I tend to be so picky with the realism of details that I'm happy if I've pleased myself, lol...but still clearly not as picky as some...

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Please don't come up with imaginary names, though. We would assume the gems were fictional and when you (somehow) make it explicit that pheluminite (made that up off the top of my head) is actually ruby, we'll be left wondering what the heck the other ones are and if all are imaginary, and why didn't you just say ruby??

 

[Queshire]

Would your target audience know enough about how gems are named to even notice? Personally I wouldn't bat an eye at those names, particularly with context (presumably) already establishing that this is Not Earth before the gems are mentioned.

 

[skip.knox]

Have you tried synonyms and analogous names? I just looked up Afghanite and found it is found in the Pamir Mts and in Patigliano. You could derive the name from either of those. Pamirite sounds legit, but if you wanted to get away from the -ite endings entirely, try Pamirstone or Pamirgem. At that point you could look for linguistic derivatives for stone, jewel and gem. As long as you kept it consistent, it would have a quality of verisimilitude.

 

[Chessie]

Hi, Des. I'm late to this conversation but just wanted to say that no, your earth names don't feel out of place in a fantasy story. You see, the beauty is that the average person hasn't studied much Geology, so these names will be uncommon to them. I wouldn't complicate things. Your gem system sounds fine and wonderful as it is. If you want to keep it in, then I would say to do so. And if I was reading your book and came across one of the gems names like Tanzanite, then I would automatically know what it is. So, on the other hand, there ARE readers who will be familiar with these stones.

Using the earth names gives you proper chance to describe the gems, too. I just prefer it when authors use normal names instead of making up ones that are hard to pronounce in my head...so if you think that there's a way to simplify the names that's another option to consider as well.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

After some chatting with a couple industry folk as well as these boards, I discovered that the question is a worthy one... agonizing even, LOL. But sticking to the Earth names in this instance seems to be the consensus, albeit a grudging one, heh heh.

Hi, Des. I'm late to this conversation but just wanted to say that no, your earth names don't feel out of place in a fantasy story. You see, the beauty is that the average person hasn't studied much Geology, so these names will be uncommon to them. I wouldn't complicate things. Your gem system sounds fine and wonderful as it is. If you want to keep it in, then I would say to do so. And if I was reading your book and came across one of the gems names like Tanzanite, then I would automatically know what it is. So, on the other hand, there ARE readers who will be familiar with these stones.

Using the earth names gives you proper chance to describe the gems, too. I just prefer it when authors use normal names instead of making up ones that are hard to pronounce in my head...so if you think that there's a way to simplify the names that's another option to consider as well.

 

[Chessie]

But Des, if you DO come up with names that are simpler than Afghanite, like Skip suggested, consider those as well. Simplicity would be my main goal, tbh.