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Great Ideas vs. Great Execution

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
I recently stumbled across Brandon Sanderson's online class that's been circulating around for a while and there was an interesting story he tells about Jim Butcher and how his Codex Alera series was created. Here's video of Butcher discussing it below (question starts at about 1:23):


So that begs the question: which is better, a great idea or great execution?

I personally think a good writer can even take the most terrible idea (as Butcher did) and make it into their own story worth telling.

Do you think you could write an awesome story based off really terrible or cliched ideas? Or do you think writing has to be birthed from inspiration that strikes you with an awesome idea or concept that then propels you to greatness?

Are there any ideas that are so terrible or cliche' that not even the most genius writer could make them good?
 
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Xaysai

Inkling
I think that great writers can take a terrible idea and make it a great story.

For me, there are things that I appreciate about a story being told which makes reading the book an experience.

I love Patrick Rothfuss' Name of the Wind series because he does an amazing job of constructing sentences and writing prose. I recall reading his book at 4 in the morning and just wanting to finish a chapter so I could sleep, then NEEDING to start the next chapter because I wanted to know what was going to happen.

If he wrote 500 pages about a dog taking a crap in the bushes with the same style and flair he wrote Name of the Wind, I would probably read it and genuinely enjoy it.

Chuck Palahniuk is another author I find capable of taking something that I wouldn't consider a "great idea" and turning it into something amazing (his last 3 books were "meh", though). There are books of his that I didn't particularly enjoy the STORY but loved the STORYTELLING.

Look at his short story "Guts" - It's a TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE IDEA, but I just loved the hell out of it. In fact, it's one of my favorites of all time, and is what got me into reading him.

China Mieville is the opposite for me, his writing is beautiful, but just don't love his storytelling.
 

tlbodine

Troubadour
It depends, I suppose, on where you draw the line as to what makes something terrible or cliche. Like, for example, there's a big difference between an author taking a cliche concept and turning it on its head, allowing us to question tired tropes, and the author just re-using all the same cliches but with style and flair. Both can be accomplished competently, I think, but they're in a different class from each other.

For example. Take Cabin in the Woods. Joss Whedon took what is arguably the most over-done horror movie storyline imaginable and twists it around and plays with all of the tropes. The end result is this weird, quirky, occasionally hilarious deconstruction.

Other movies that play those tropes straight -- Cabin Fever comes to mind immediately, but there's countless others -- aren't nearly as successful, but at least some are quite competent and enjoyable.

So, anyway, that's the first question to suss out -- are the tropes being used straight/as-is, or is it a deconstruction?
 

Legendary Sidekick

The HAM'ster
Moderator
I embrace cliches, so I'm rootin' for execution!

Phil the Drill said:
Are there any ideas that are so terrible or cliche' that not even the most genius writer could make them good?
My gut says no, and since satire exists, even the worst ideas can be humorous, so I'm sticking with 'no.'

I'm certain about the inverse: no idea is so great that it can't be botched up by a hack writer.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
So, anyway, that's the first question to suss out -- are the tropes being used straight/as-is, or is it a deconstruction?

I'd imagine either way. I don't think Butcher took the idea of Pokemon and the Lost Roman Legion and actually used them as-is. From what he said in the video, he deconstructed the idea of Pokemon down to a literalization of the Shinto belief system. Then he used that concept to create the magic system in his world.

I think all these threads about cliches exist on Mythic Scribes because people want to make sure their ideas are original. I think what Butcher argues is that ideas don't need to be original as long as the execution is right. Meaning a combination of character, setting, and plot that works.

I realize that what is terrible is subjective, but if someone was to say "Write a fantasy story about an octopus that falls in love with a table" then some people may have a hard time making something interesting out of that. Others may rise to the challenge and think "I could make a great story about that!"
 

Devora

Sage
I think a great story is a combination of both.

Sure you can make a terrible idea into a great story, or turn a great idea into a terrible story, but I always like to come up with a great idea (even if i explain it in a boring way) and, with careful precision, work it into a superb story.

It's all a matter of how well you hone in on the Craft.
 

tlbodine

Troubadour
And it's not just a skill with language that does it. I think this ties in with the purple vs beige argument, in a weird way. But I think good writing is marked (for me at least) with insight. If the way a person is handling an idea makes me see it in a new way or think about it from a new angle, then it's suddenly engaging. If I feel that author's heart and soul in it -- if I feel that he's poured some part of himself onto the page -- that's when I get engaged.

I think that's why cliches don't work, because they're not grounded in an author's experience. They're just used, tossed around, not really thought about. If you really look into them, think about them, develop them through your own experiences, then you're doing something interesting.

And I concur with Sidekick -- I've seen plenty of super interesting ideas be destroyed by sub-par writing.
 
While I wouldn't say you can build a decent story off good ideas and bad writing, I think you can build one off of good authorial vision and minimal technical skill. That is to say, if you know exactly what and who you want to write about, and if you really get into how your characters think, you can probably create something readable even if you have trouble with word choice and sentence structure. (This is also how a good story can survive an abysmal translation, as with the official English translation of Battle Royale and the first English translation of Solaris.)
 

Mindfire

Istar
My personal thoughts: an extremely talented writer can indeed polish a turd. A complete hack could muck up even Lord of the Rings. Those of us who fall somewhere in the middle of those extremes ought to rely on a combination of inspiration and execution.
 

Wanara009

Troubadour
I've always said that there is no such thing as a Bad Idea, only Bad Execution. You can bring any formulaic and tired (or even bad) concept and then invigorate life back into it with Great Execution.

Let's pick an example: the 2012 The Avengers movie. The plot is really basic: a group of people coming together to deal with a problem, they quarrel and split off, then somehow put aside their difference to deal with the big problem at the third act (basically every team-up themed movie ever made). Yet the execution is just so... great that I can't fault its basic plot.

On the other end of the scale: The Star Wars prequel. Great setting and interesting plot concept (finding out what made Vader into what he is now) yet the end result made me want to vomit.
 

Gurkhal

Auror
I've got to agree that the execution is what really matters in the end. A great idea will never live without a great execution.
 

PaulineMRoss

Inkling
I think you writer people worry too much about ideas. A sizeable proportion of the books I read are based on ideas that have been around since prehistoric times, but they can still be good. Conversely, a book can be brimming over with originality and be unreadable (to me, that is - these things are always personal). You might think it would be impossible to take the tired old prophecy/farmboy/secret heir to kingdom/unsuspected magical ability trope and produce anything halfway decent, but you'd be wrong. I'm reading exactly that at the moment, and it's a cracking read, absolutely terrific. It's all in the execution.
 

Twook00

Sage
This is great, but... why wouldn't you strive for both?

Also, couldn't one argue that the Codex Alera series was actually a brilliant and original concept? What exactly makes a single idea good or bad? It's subjective, right?

Either way, good execution is going to win out every time because it results in strong characters, plots, motivations, suspense, and so on. Whether its a good idea or a bad one, a well written story is a good story.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
This is great, but... why wouldn't you strive for both?

Two takeaways, for me at least:

1. Don't obsess over your idea.
2. Any time spent trying futilely to come up with an original idea is time that you aren't spending either executing or improving your ability to execute.

BTW, am I the only one that didn't think the Codex Alera series was all that great?
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
So that begs the question: which is better, a great idea or great execution?

Great Execution. It's too easy to ruin a good idea or make a lame idea look good.

However, I don't think good ideas are a dime a dozen; or rather, maybe it's like a Booster Pack for those card games, where you have to buy a dozen packs to get that one great card. Even if any single card is good enough to fit into the right deck, and you still need the sense to put together a good deck, it's the special, hard-to-find ones that make the deck unique.
 
Well, i think we are missing out on a few levels here that are valid.

Great execution + great idea = mythical texts in our dreams
Great execution + good idea = standard epic level books
Great execution + average idea = standard books (scale moving depending on era)
Great execution + bad idea = cult status/"unknown genius"

I'd go through and do the bad execution, but then it just leads to a bad novel/story.

The real nugget here is to find out what is the "sliding scale". Granted, all this is based off perspective and experience, but in the end you can always average out the thoughts and get your scale down pat.

And yes, great execution will make clipping toenails exciting. Writing about the process of toenail clipping is not a great idea.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
In my humble opinion, ideas are cheap. Execution, on the other hand, is hard work.

The skill of the author is honed over time. An author can draw you into a story you've heard a hundred times, yet it feels fresh & new. The characters are different & engaging. Maybe something about the setting or struggle resonates with you. There are loads of reasons why the authors execution may pull you deep into a tale. I wouldn't consider an "idea" powerful enough on its own to do that.
 
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