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Are Elves, Orcs, Etc. Dead?

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
Something interesting I've been thinking about recently. Are traditional fantasy races going the way of the dodo? Meaning, will one day they cease to be mentioned in the realm of fantasy discussion except for talking about the "good ole days?"

I find that as time goes on, some writers seem to have more and more aversion to having races like elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. (basically Tolkien races) in their stories in favor of more realistic human variants. George Martin has shown to a wider audience that fantasy isn't all wizards and elves and orcs (although he does have elements very similar). I think this may cause mainstream fantasy to push more in that direction than the more Tolkien-esque tradition. The topic is often broached, "Are [insert fantasy race] cliche?" Why is this?

I think it's backlash against a long history of these types of high fantasy tales that may have caused readers/writers to not be as interested in stories with these races. There have been great stories told in this vein, but perhaps more writers are getting influenced by reality and books outside of fantasy than Tolkien, LeGuin, Jordan, and others. Maybe they think it's "too Dungeons and Dragons." And while I haven't read a Dragonlance book in some time, I still hold a fond memory for them. I think when you say "elf" nowadays it immediately evokes either "Santa's helper" or "Legolas look-a-like."

I find this kind of disconcerting, because I personally think there are tons of new tales to be told with these kind of races in them. New, fresh tales that don't tread on the same territory over and over again. And I'm a big proponent of some of the more realistic fantasy out there. However, I'd still like to see rich, fantasy stories with all variety of exotic and traditional elements in them. I want wizards shooting lighting from their fingertips and orcs bashing through a phalanx of soldiers. However, I like my grit too.

For me with such a wealth of history and culture to draw from, that we'd get more different types of fantasy creatures/races explored in new ways.

Do you use traditional fantasy races in your stories? Why or why not?

Also, are there any examples of writers you like who are currently (notice it is bold, I'm not talking about books written 10 or 20 years ago) using traditional fantasy races in their stories to good effect? (I personally like Andrezj Sapkowski's portrayal, while a traditional approach, he makes them fresh somehow)
 

Jabrosky

Banned
Truth be told, if elves and orcs really are phasing out of fantasy, I won't miss them much. I mean, I won't mind if someone else wants to write about them, but they are not essential to the genre in my opinion. We humans have plenty of physical and cultural diversity all by ourselves anyway.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

Troubadour
Oddly, I agree with both Devor and Jabrosky. I think Homo sapiens provide plenty of conflict and storyline by themselves. But outside the human realm, I'll take orcs and dwarves any day vs vampires and werewolves. People talk about wanting 'grimdark' to end (and I sorta agree), but the whole vampire/werewolf thing, especially with romance novel overtones, is just killing me. In the bricks & mortar stores, this stuff is crowding out multiple feet of shelf space that could be devoted to books I'd actually want to read. Would this sub-genre just die already?

Note: none of the above intended to offend those who like the sub-genre and I speak as a man who actually liked the Twilight movies. That's right, I said it.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
I too think there is enough to pull from humans as well, but a lot of the races are iconic in fantasy. I personally enjoy fantasy with loads of monsters and races, just because to me it feels more like I'm reading something in the fantasy realm and not just Earth with magic and swords. I like contemporary fantasy myself (I've written some modern fantasy stories) so I'm not totally against worlds with only humans in them. Just I'd like to see people try new and exciting things with fantasy races sometimes.

With vampires and werewolves (don't want to get on that tangent really), but when they're done well, they're interesting. If someone can make a man made of toilet paper interesting, I'll read it.
 

TheokinsJ

Troubadour
What you have to understand is that fantasy races have existed for thousands of years. Take elves and dwarves for example, they were in Viking and German mythology long before Tolkien every wrote the Lord of the Rings. Fantasy races are not bad, but I believe that they are becoming cliché because so many writers saw Tolkien's idea and thought "wow that's cool! I'm gonna have elves in my story". Basically people are overusing them so much that they have become cliché.
Tolkien wasn't the first writer to use Elves and Dwarves either, but the way he portrayed them in his books was new and different.
If today people said to me "In my story there are elves and Dwarves" I would look at them and say "Is your book a rip off of the Lord of the Rings?". I think elves and dwarves are overused in fantasy now, whereas when Tolkien used them, they were fresh and not many writers had written about them before. This doesn't mean that they will always remain cliché, when people stop using them in fantasy for a while, it will come 'back in fashion' eventually.
This isn't to say you can't use races in fantasy, it's just you have to do new and different things to them, and perhaps create your own, rather than make a rip off of The Lord of the Rings.
 

Shockley

Maester
I don't think there's anything that ever goes away completely - much like the fantasy genre is the recycled myth of the past, elves and orcs and dwarves will continue to be relevent in their own way.
 

Ophiucha

Auror
I doubt they'll ever die out for good, but there are certainly fewer of them in modern fantasy than there used to be. Probably because people are afraid to change them too much, but also don't want to be stuck with the same dwarves that Tolkien was using. I think that is the biggest problem they face as a fantasy device; the different races of humanoids isn't a problem, but the fact that dwarves are as much associated with their shortness as they are their mines and their beards limits how much they can be used. Not every story really calls for a mining race. People subvert and twist them, but I am struggling to think of examples of stories where dwarves weren't associated with mine and ore in some way. In more modern stories, they are mechanical masters, but ultimately still tied to the same craft. Gunsmiths instead of blacksmiths, perhaps.

Humans, obviously, don't have that problem because we're fully aware of the diversity of human potential. You can have six nations run by humans and have them all be completely unlike each other; see also: the real world. But how many stories can you name that had two dwarf nations? And of those, which ones had significant cultural and societal differences between them? It's limiting. Elves have a bit more diversity, presumably because people like them more, but there are still traits that never seem to die no matter how dark or how modern the setting. I've read urban fantasy with elves that still managed to make them archers.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I doubt it. Look how many D&D and other related traditional fantasy books are still on the shelves and selling well. Just because certain other fantasy novels are at the top of the genre right now doesn't mean the ones with traditional races are dead, and I doubt they'll ever fade away.
 

johnsonjoshuak

Troubadour
I use both Elves and Orcs in my world, but definitely not in the traditional sense. While there are some "tree-dwelling" Elves in my world, they are a subset that are hardly mentioned. The main group of Elves are a seafaring confederated nation. They build swift ships and are often contracted to move messages and goods quickly.

Orcs in my world are more like native americans. 3 tribes decided to go the way of humans and elves and built cities and eventually a republic that included humans and elves. This republic later fell, but the 3 cities maintained and are now a major source of mercenary legions. The rest of the Orcs continue their hunter/gatherer existence on the plains.

Could I have just used humans in place of these two races? Yes. But I felt there was just something different about using these traditional races but in a different way than everyone is used to.
 
Hi,

I certainly hope that elves aren't going the way of the dodo. They're a mainstay of my writing and now that I think about it, I've never written a character based on a dodo!

But like the others I do wish romantic teenage girl obsessed vampires would die a savage death!

Cheers, Greg.
 

PaulineMRoss

Inkling
My heart always sinks when words like elf, dwarf or orc appear in a book's blurb. It might be the most original take ever on those races, but (as others have said) it's difficult to stray very far from Tolkien's template. And if the races in a book are unoriginal, maybe the plot is too.

The trouble is, I think some authors use them because it's easier than inventing new races. You can casually mention elves in passing, and the reader knows pretty much what you mean (pointy ears, live in trees, archers, etc), so you don't have to describe them in detail. It's shorthand, so an author can get straight down to the plot. And throw in little twist (hey, my elves live underground/can fly/are green and ugly! Look, I'm subverting the trope!)... It's much the same when the setting is the tired old medieval feudal system (yawn...).

For those who are still enchanted by elves - that's absolutely fine, and there are still readers out there who'll buy those books. Authors should always write what they want. But personally I like my fantasy to surprise me and elves, dwarves and orcs don't, much.

ETA: On the other hand, dragons are still totally cool :)
 
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As I see it, if you're gonna give me nonhumans, give me nonhumans. Don't give me humans who're short and have beards and then try to tell me they're a different species. (Of course, trying to change things around can backfire, but that doesn't mean it's a lost cause--the Artemis Fowl series, for instance, has a very unique take on dwarves.)
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
My heart always sinks when words like elf, dwarf or orc appear in a book's blurb. It might be the most original take ever on those races, but (as others have said) it's difficult to stray very far from Tolkien's template. And if the races in a book are unoriginal, maybe the plot is too.

The trouble is, I think some authors use them because it's easier than inventing new races. You can casually mention elves in passing, and the reader knows pretty much what you mean (pointy ears, live in trees, archers, etc), so you don't have to describe them in detail. It's shorthand, so an author can get straight down to the plot. And throw in little twist (hey, my elves live underground/can fly/are green and ugly! Look, I'm subverting the trope!)... It's much the same when the setting is the tired old medieval feudal system (yawn...).

For those who are still enchanted by elves - that's absolutely fine, and there are still readers out there who'll buy those books. Authors should always write what they want. But personally I like my fantasy to surprise me and elves, dwarves and orcs don't, much.

ETA: On the other hand, dragons are still totally cool :)

It's interesting that you say dragons are still cool. I love dragons myself, but they're as overplayed and cliche in some fantasy novels as elves or dwarves are. If I read a blurb that says, "The dragons are returning..." I may go..."Oh boy." That's because dragons being gone from the world and coming back has been done numerous times. Some writers do that better than others though, so I shouldn't pre-judge a book based on that.

I'd love to see writers invent more fantasy races myself, but generally they're going to be versions of some other culture's mythology anyway. Such as an author may say "I wrote a story about creatures called Taragi, that live in the mountains and have the faces of men, but wings like a bird." Well, those are basically tengu.

I think if people admit "Yeah, these creatures are tengu" or "These creatures are elves" then to me it's better than trying to subvert tropes. It would be like having a dog in a story and calling them "marmutts" or something.

My point is, there are still ways to use elves and dwarves in stories without necessarily subverting tropes and still make them interesting, the same way you can still make Medieval fantasy interesting. My personal feelings are that writers should of course write what they want, and readers should read what they want. But I get the feeling that with people feeling saturated with "grimdark" (the unflattering name for dark, realistic fantasy) that eventually writers are going to want to re-explore what was popular before. Like any form of entertainment, it's cyclical.

I personally like darker, realistic stories, but I like high fantasy with elves and wizards too.
 
C

Chessie

Guest
I think humanoid races will always have a place in fantasy...they pretty much are fantasy. I don't think they are overused like vampires though. I enjoy a good werewolf tale but vampires these days make me gag. Anyway, I hope elves stay around forever because there is so much to them. They can be just as diverse as humans. I still like to read about them in fantasy worlds where they are either the only race or along with humans. Fantasy books that include humans, dwarves, orcs, elves, etc just turns into a more modern version of Tolkien for me. Yeah, its kind of unfair he stomped the grounds for modern fantasy writers but come on...worlds with only humans are just as interesting.
 
Um, stupid question, maybe, but what does "grimdark" have to do with not having orcs and elves? Berserk has elves but is blatantly grimdark, and . . . Actually, I can't think of a fantasy setting that lacks orcs and elves but is as idealistic as Berserk is cynical. Are there elves in Atelier? (Alternately, can The Dying Earth be called optimistic?)
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
I think this current crop of writing that deals with realism is being called "grimdark." I'm only giving it the category others have said. Technically, this term birthed from a description of Warhammer being "a grim universe with dark...etc. etc." So yeah, I think elves, orcs, etc. can be in darker settings for sure. However, this term grimdark is being used for people like Mark Lawrence, R. Scott Bakker, Richard K. Morgan, Joe Abercrombie, and others, who don't really have elves and orcs in them, as far as I know anyway. They're not in the vein of traditional, Tolkien fantasy, is what I mean.

I wasn't really including video games and manga into this equation because Japanese fantasy is completely different than Western fantasy, which I think most people are talking about here. Honestly, Japanese don't really seem much into Western style fantasy with the exception of Berserk, Vinland Saga, and Record of Lodoss War. There are others of course, but Japanese tend to have their own thing going, which honestly, I wouldn't mind rubbing off more on Western writers to a certain degree.

Dying Earth birthed its own sub-genre, called...Dying Earth, so it sort of goes in a different direction. Most of the worlds described in the so-called grimdark worlds aren't dystopian, they're just dark and dangerous.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I've said in another thread about these races that I think there's value to using familiar elements because it's easier for the reader to process. A book with elves and dwarves can have as many original fantasy elements as a book without them because elves and dwarves are established, and don't require "work" on the part of the reader to understand them. They let you have a world with more going on it.

However, the issue I want to raise is how often these races are portrayed as caricatures of what they're meant to be. In Tolkein, an elf could feel immortal, immersed in magic. You often lose a lot of that in the cheap knockoffs. So I'm not going to talk about how you need to do something "original" with elves and dwarves and orcs. Instead, I'm just going to say that you shouldn't use them if you cannot capture that sense of wonder and genuineness which came with the originals.
 

Chris Conley

Dreamer
I would definitely read more stories about undead elves or undead orcs...
Wait! That's not what this topic is about? My bad.

They do seem less common these days, which is fine. I'd rather have them be left out than be forced into a story for the sake of including them.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
That's a good point, Devor. That's what I was trying to say, one way or another. I don't think there is a need to reinvent these races, but just use them in a way that isn't a caricature like you said. I would hope more writers would not be afraid to delve into these races more without feeling their being unoriginal or cliche.

One point that gets brought up a lot is that people don't like these "new" vampires. Vampires have been around for centuries though and each culture has their own version of them. If a writer takes elements of the vampire that used to make them terrifying, it's a more interesting approach to me. Anne Rice romanticized vampires to the point where I think most people identify them more as being handsome/pretty than vicious, blood-sucking killers. It worked for Anne Rice and, however way anyone wants to spin it, it worked for Stephanie Meyer. But looking back at myth, writers can still capture that magic if they wanted to.

OK, don't want to go off on a vampire tangent...:)
 
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