Women in fantasy

[Steerpike]

I just looked up half a dozen definitions, and not all of them include hatred as part of it. As with many things, it depends on which definition you want to use. There is the literal definition, if you look at the root of the word, and then the various definitions determined by use. "Sinister" doesn't have to mean left-handed or on the left side, for example.

Wikipedia addresses the issue if anyone wants to give further consideration to various usages: Misogyny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And now, back to your regularly scheduled thread!

 

[Kit]

Actually I'd advocate avoiding the word misogyny because it politicizes the conversation. It immediately makes the matter a political issue instead of one of simple respect and courtesy. Sticking to the dictionary definition, which you seem dissatisfied with, helps avoid this. And the comparison to racism is not accurate, I feel, because someone doesn't have to actively hate something to be a racist. Casual discrimination is enough. Not so with misogyny. The word explicitly means hatred of women. And I would be cautious of construing a simple act of disrespect, egregious though it may be, as an act of hatred. That would be tantamount to accusing every white woman who glanced nervously at me as if I would steal her purse of being in the Ku Klux Klan. Somehow I don't think calling her a Klansman (Klanswoman?) is going to help my cause. And in general, I don't think shock value is the best way to go about convincing someone to reflect on their actions and choose to better themselves. What's more, I'm kind of an uptight, logical sort (most of the time. I can be positively Vulcan until my human eccentricities kick in), so I think dictionary definitions are important. Sticking to them helps curb semantics arguments like this one.

I am completely boggled as to how/why you categorize lower levels of discrimination against women as being somehow more acceptable than lower levels of discrimination against black people. Neither is okay.

And yes, it is a political issue. You seem to want to downgrade it to an ettiquette snafu, and a debatable one at that. No way.

 

[Mindfire]

I am completely boggled as to how/why you categorize lower levels of discrimination against women as being somehow more acceptable than lower levels of discrimination against black people. Neither is okay.

And yes, it is a political issue. You seem to want to downgrade it to an ettiquette snafu, and a debatable one at that. No way.

Did I say it was more acceptable? Because I don't think I ever said it was more acceptable.

 

[Jabrosky]

I am completely boggled as to how/why you categorize lower levels of discrimination against women as being somehow more acceptable than lower levels of discrimination against black people. Neither is okay.

I don't think he means to say that sexism is more acceptable than racism. Notice he is talking not about the subordination of women but the hatred of them. You don't need to be hostile towards women to support their subordination.

 

[saellys]

Actually I'd advocate avoiding the word misogyny because it politicizes the conversation. It immediately makes the matter a political issue instead of one of simple respect and courtesy. Sticking to the dictionary definition, which you seem dissatisfied with, helps avoid this. And the comparison to racism is not accurate, I feel, because someone doesn't have to actively hate something to be a racist. Casual discrimination is enough. Not so with misogyny. The word explicitly means hatred of women. And I would be cautious of construing a simple act of disrespect, egregious though it may be, as an act of hatred. That would be tantamount to accusing every white woman who glanced nervously at me as if I would steal her purse of being in the Ku Klux Klan. Somehow I don't think calling her a Klansman (Klanswoman?) is going to help my cause. And in general, I don't think shock value is the best way to go about convincing someone to reflect on their actions and choose to better themselves. What's more, I'm kind of an uptight, logical sort (most of the time. I can be positively Vulcan until my human eccentricities kick in), so I think dictionary definitions are important. Sticking to them helps curb semantics arguments like this one.

I don't see how we can take this discussion anywhere. You say casual discrimination is enough to earn the label of racism; I say it's enough to earn the label of misogyny. People have the same visceral reaction when they're called out for saying something racist as they do when they're called out for saying something misogynistic. A racist joke is still racist whether or not someone subscribes to particular prejudices, and a misogynistic joke is still misogynistic whether or not a person identifies as explicitly hating women.

It's less that I'm dissatisfied with the dictionary definition and more that I'm dissatisfied with how easily people use that definition to split hairs over whether particular behavior signals outright hatred. That waters down the discussion to the point of meaninglessness. What it signals is irrelevant. What it perpetuates is the issue.

Let's go back to fantasy now, yeah?

 

[Mindfire]

A final word in my defense: I have combed my post multiple times and I cannot fathom where you got the idea that I said disrespect towards women is "more acceptable" or that it is an "etiquette snafu". What I mean is that calling every man who shows you discriminatory treatment a "misogynist" is a bit like me responding to every incident of casual racism with a sarcastic "yes, massah", or the more direct, "SCREW YOU, KLANSMAN!"

You can see how that might not exactly be the best course of action.

 

[saellys]

I didn't say that I'd call anyone who showed me discriminatory treatment a misogynist, and neither did Kit, for that matter. Both of us said that we point out misogyny when we see it, and misogyny is a really important word that is, for many reasons, stronger than your preferred "disrespect toward women" and more likely to make people look seriously at what they're doing.

 

[Philip Overby]

Back to women in fantasy please.

 

[Ophiucha]

I don't think saying something misogynistic = being a misogynist. It's casual misogyny, often unconscious and likely unintended, but still reinforcing a stereotype and potentially being offensive. Just like a lot of casual racism. Unintended, unconscious, but still problematic. I don't assume every person who makes a joke about me being 'in the kitchen' (as I am a female chef) is automatically a misogynist, but that doesn't make what they said okay or not misogynistic just because they theoretically know better.

Semantic arguments, I suppose.

Favourite female fantasy author, anyone?

 

[Mask]

I really hate word play... During the genocide of Rawanda, you know what was going on? The US public were arguing whether it could be called genocide or not. It was genocide.

Similarly, let's try to be accurate with our word use. Do we really want to label the ill-taught and foolish as the same as the downright psychopathic? I don't think that would be very fair.

 

[Steerpike]

So, someone give me their top five "strong" female characters from fantasy fiction. Five characters where you'd say the author got it right.

 

[Jabrosky]

I rather like Dossouye, one of Charles R. Saunder's "sword & soul" heroines. She is the best example of a WoC (Woman of Color) protagonist I can recall reading for the moment.

 

[Steerpike]

I rather like Dossouye, one of Charles R. Saunder's "sword & soul" heroines. She is the best example of a WoC (Woman of Color) protagonist I can recall reading for the moment.

I don't know that author. I'll have to look him up.

 

[Philip Overby]

This is something that hasn't been discussed much in this thread: women fantasy writers.

I really like J.V. Jones. She's in that "gritty" camp in some ways, but her novel A Cavern in Black Ice (maybe the title is slightly different?) is really good. I also like the sword and sorcery of C.L. Moore that follows Jirel of Joiry, a great warrior that goes on many adventures. Jirel is a pretty tough character and she often confronts witches and trolls and the like. Good stuff.

Top 5 Female Characters in my Book:

1. Jirel of Joiry
2. Cersei Lannister
3. Katniss Everdeen
4. Daenerys Targanyen
5. Sookie Stackhouse

 

[Mask]

So, someone give me their top five "strong" female characters from fantasy fiction. Five characters where you'd say the author got it right.

Gladly .

MC of Nausica, Lana from Future Boy Conan, E from The Incredibles (Elasta Girl was very good too), and the Dragon girl and Geoffrey's unfortunate Fiancée from Game of Thrones.

If I gave it a longer, harder thought, with all the characters I can think of--that list might be rather different. But those are some of the characters who come to mind.

 

[Steerpike]

Some female writers I like who wrote Fantasy (among other things, in some cases):

Octavia Butler
Tanith Lee
Storm Constantine
Angela Carter
Sherri Tepper

 

[Steerpike]

For characters, Paks, from Sheepfarmer's Daughter has to be mentioned.

I also like Tattersail, from Steven Erikson's Garden of the Moon. The thing about Tattersail - she's tough. She's in command of the mages of the 2nd mage cadre. She's a love interest. And Erikson doesn't force her into being some lithe sex symbol. She's described as a fat woman. I like the fact that he took the characteristics that made her strong, independent, and likable, but then didn't build the character as some lean, large-breasted woman the men drooled over. For some reason, authors tend to take a female character you're supposed to like, and even if they give her good personal traits they feel like she has to be overtly sexy as well.

 

[Ankari]

Phedre from Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel's Dart

Moraine Sedai from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time

Arya Stark from George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire

Tavore Paran from Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen

The Lady from Glen Cook's The Black Company

 

[Ophiucha]

A couple of characters who spring to mind,

Jane from The Iron Dragon's Daughter, by Michael Swanwick. She is a fantastic protagonist in a dark science fantasy novel for a lot of reasons, most notably that she really is nothing special. I love it. From a feminist angle, this is also a book that explores female sexuality a lot more than anything you'll find in the regular SFF section of the book store. I seem to recall her even nicknaming her 'little Jane'.

Ista from Paladin of Souls, by Lois McMaster Bujold. An older female protagonist, nigh unheard of, and a mother. Perhaps one of the most traditionally feminine lead characters of a novel, and a fantastic novel at that. Pretty sure it snagged 'Best Novel' in all three of the big awards for SFF.

And my five favourite female fantasy authors:

• Ursula K. LeGuin
• Nnedi Okorafor
• Catherynne M. Valente
• Mercedes Lackey
• Octavia Butler

 

[Steerpike]

Phedre from Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel's Dart

Moraine Sedai from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time

Arya Stark from George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire

Tavore Paran from Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen

The Lady from Glen Cook's The Black Company

All good picks, in my opinion.