• Welcome to the Fantasy Writing Forums. Register Now to join us!

Do you need to know where you are going?

Sheriff Woody

Troubadour
Such an assertion is silly. If you don't understand the process discovery writers use to create their stories, how can you possibly know that it can't hurt the process?

You can still discover things along the way.

I can think of no example of any story that was hurt through outlining. None whatsoever in the history of time.

But I can think of plenty that were hurt from *not* outlining.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
You can still discover things along the way.

I can think of no example of any story that was hurt through outlining. None whatsoever in the history of time.

But I can think of plenty that were hurt from *not* outlining.

No offense, but you're professing to know the unknowable. Unless you have infinite knowledge both of all stories ever created and how they were created, such an assertion is pretty much meaningless.

All you can really say is, "In my experience, outlining can only help."

Again no offense, but my experience tells me otherwise.

Since you don't share my experience and your experience, presumably, isn't infinite, I'm not sure the basis for your qualification to disagree?
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I disagree that outlining can't hurt. I've seen instances of it hurting, where writers become restrictively tied to their outline and get stuck. In many cases, not having an outline opens up a lot of room to improve the story. Whether it helps or hurts depends on the writer.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
When I start writing a story it's because the story is already alive inside my mind from start to end, and even though I do not know every little detail about how it will be written, I know clearly how it starts and how it ends.

We all write in different ways, but I believe firmly that you at least need to know how the story ends, to know where you are going as the title of this thread says. Writing a story is like taking a journey, and when you travel you need to know where to go and how to get there, right??

You do not need to outline everything (always, unexpected things will happen sometimes, as you write) but knowing your own story before you start to write it is really important =)
 
Yes, you need to know where you're going. How can you foreshadow or set-up anything to pay-off later if you don't?

You can get a bit chicken and egg with this. You get to the final act and think, "Oh, is that why I put that random thing in Act 1?"

Or you can put your characters in a jam and think, "Okay, what have I given them that might get them out of this one?"

I think an intuitive grasp of structure is important to this style of writing though.
 

TWErvin2

Auror
There is no single 'right way' to write a novel. I am not one who can, or at least chooses, to write from the seat of my pants and see what happens. I plan out where the story will start, where it will end, and some of the major points/events along the way. Some of those events may change, not occur, and new ones may emerge during the writing, but it gives me a guide, sort of like a road map for a planned vacation. May take different routes than anticiapted, skip some stops and find a few other interesting ones, but I get there using the same general route and plan.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
That's a problem with the writer, not the outlining process.

This doesn't make sense. Your argument first is that outlining is always better. Now its that outlining is always better, except when it isn't, in which case the writer has a problem.

The problem lies in pretending that one approach that is best for you is best for everyone. Some writers produce better work without outlines than they would with one. Others produce better works with an outline. Many writers, in my experience, work best with outlines at some times, and without them at other times. And if they do outline, the level of detail in the outline varies drastically, from vague notes sketched on a piece of paper to laborious detail set page after page.
 

Sheriff Woody

Troubadour
This doesn't make sense. Your argument first is that outlining is always better. Now its that outlining is always better, except when it isn't, in which case the writer has a problem.

Treating the outline as gospel is just plain wrong. You need to allow yourself to always be coming up with new and better ideas that fully service the story. The outline is there to keep your ideas in check and make sure your story is a story and not just a collection of events.

Saying "this is that and that's how it will be forever and always"...sorry, but that's not a flaw in the outlining process; it's just a writer being a damn fool.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
As somone who pantsed a 270k book and as someone who outlined a 110k book, I say both ways have their merits. I personally have settled somewhere in the middle.

There are plenty of published authors who are pantsers, one being Steven King, and there are plenty who are outliners. Eg Brandon Sanderson.

Here's what King says about outlining
“Outlines are the last resource of bad fiction writers who wish to God they were writing masters' theses.”

Here's what Sanderson says about outlining
I do outline quite extensively. Remember, however, that authors each tend to do things their own ways. There's no one perfect way to do this. George R. R. Martin described some of the extremes in terms of "Gardeners" and "Architects." Gardeners grow a story, without a firm idea of where they are going. Architects tend to build an outline as a frame and work from it.

I'm (usually) an architect. I've found that the best way to get the kinds of endings I like. I have to know where I'm going before I start.

FYI Brandon Sanderson also pantses his series of Alcatraz books. For that series of books, he said it just seemed to work better pantsing.
 
To all those who say having an ending is necessary, I disagree. As I said in my earlier post, Jeffrey Archer doesn't know mostly how his story is going to end. And look where that got him. On top of the bestseller charts. Yes, he's a great author and all, and maybe it doesn't matter for him, but we're all human and many other aspiring writers can also think on the same wavelength as him.

Not having an ending, I presume (never having gone through it, although now that I've expanded my plot, I don't know how it ends, so I do actually have a fair idea), can unleash your imagination, imagining various plot scenarios. While some may argue that it results in the severe simplification or vacuuming of a plot, it doesn't all the time. Of course, I would recommend knowing the initial direction you're going, if you're going to go along that route.

Some authors may find not knowing their ending results in a better story with more plot turns and ideas, and some may find that it hampers their plot planning, but you can't discount it. It's a valuable method in itself and it would be unwise to chuck it away.


Every method has its different merits, so you can't just proclaim one to be extremely beneficial and stating it never hurt anyone. I think TheokinsJ's problem takes care of that. It did hurt him in the way that it turned his mood off writing.

Every writer seeks a method of plotting as it suits him/her and chooses the one he/she finds themselves most comfortable with. And you can't force one that suits you into another's gullet, it's not right.
 
Top