Listing - Inherently Bad?

[BWFoster78]

I'm having a bit of a disagreement with one of my beta readers. When that happens, I like to get some outside input to help determine whether it's his advice that's off or if it's my judgment that's impaired.

Here's the section in question:

“Less so than if any of you were with me. I’m trained to scout and won’t get caught, unlike lead foot.” Brant pointed at Xan. “Or fidget boy.” He gestured at Dylan. “Or limp girl. Do you understand?”

The "list" quality of the above section really bothers my beta reader. He's made the same observation about other sections. He'd prefer something like:

“Less so than if any of you were with me. I’m trained to scout and won’t get caught, unlike lead foot.” Brant pointed at Xan. “And the other two of you aren't much better. Do you understand?”

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Brian

 

[Jessquoi]

Why discredit something just because it has a certain trait? For me, the first version flows more and is more expressive, it says more about the person who's talking.

 

[BWFoster78]

Why discredit something just because it has a certain trait? For me, the first version flows more and is more expressive, it says more about the person who's talking.

I tend to agree that listing can be bad. I don't want to read a lot of long itemizations of what someone had for breakfast. Perhaps my beta reader finds that stylistic choice much more annoying than I do.

You'd be surprised at how annoyed I get over things like speech tags and semicolons

Anyway, just wondering if a lot of others felt the same as my beta reader.

Thanks for the response! I, too, feel it's more expressive.

Brian

 

[Steerpike]

I don't mind the list quality, per se. I'm not sold on the way the sentences read, though. A couple alternatives:

1. “Less so than if any of you were with me. I’m trained to scout and won’t get caught." Brant gestured toward Xan and Dylan. “Unlike lead foot, fidget boy, or limp girl. Do you understand?”

2. “Less so than if any of you were with me. I’m trained to scout and won’t get caught, unlike lead foot or fidget boy." Brant gestured toward Xan and Dylan in turn. “Or limp girl. Do you understand?"

Something along those lines, where you're not breaking up every nickname he uses with a gesture to point out who it is. The identity of limp girl is clear from the text, right?

If the identity of all of the people by nickname is clear enough, you could just have him say " I’m trained to scout and won’t get caught, unlike lead foot, fidget boy, or limp girl. Do you understand”

 

[BWFoster78]

2. “Less so than if any of you were with me. I’m trained to scout and won’t get caught, unlike lead foot or fidget boy." Brant gestured toward Xan and Dylan in turn. “Or limp girl. Do you understand?"

I get your point about not breaking it up. I think that something along these lines works.

The identity of limp girl is clear from the text, right?

Yep.

If the identity of all of the people by nickname is clear enough, you could just have him say " I’m trained to scout and won’t get caught, unlike lead foot, fidget boy, or limp girl. Do you understand?”

Whereas "limp girl" is clearly defined, I'm not confident about the other two. I haven't shown Dylan as particularly fidgety as it's Brant's perception in an isolated circumstance instead of a characteristic. I have shown Xan as inept at sneaking, but "lead foot" isn't obviously a description for him.

Thanks for the response!

Brian

 

[Mythopoet]

If your beta reader is getting hung up on something like that I think you need to find a new beta reader.

 

[BWFoster78]

If your beta reader is getting hung up on something like that I think you need to find a new beta reader.

To me, the beta reader's job is to point out things that annoy him. It's the author's job to then determine if those annoyances have merit in general. It seems to me that any beta reader that doesn't point out something that you end up disagreeing with isn't doing a very thorough job.

I'm glad he makes such comments; I never know when just such a comment is going to be the catalyst to take my writing to a new level.

 

[Penpilot]

I do agree there's something that's not quite working with that paragraph. Part of it is after the first dialogue chunk, all the sentences are three and four words in length, so there's a halting quality that disrupts flow. Also the pointing and gesturing after each piece of dialogue gives Brand a fidgety quality that's exaggerated by the short sentences. I'm on board with Steerpike's examples.

 

[Mythopoet]

To me, the beta reader's job is to point out things that annoy him. It's the author's job to then determine if those annoyances have merit in general. It seems to me that any beta reader that doesn't point out something that you end up disagreeing with isn't doing a very thorough job.

I'm glad he makes such comments; I never know when just such a comment is going to be the catalyst to take my writing to a new level.

I don't think a beta reader that gets annoyed by trivial matters that are strictly personal preference is going to help you. It's not a beta reader's job to rewrite your prose.

 

[brokethepoint]

I was thinking the same thing as Steerpike.

 

[Chilari]

I don't think a beta reader that gets annoyed by trivial matters that are strictly personal preference is going to help you. It's not a beta reader's job to rewrite your prose.

Beta readers can get a feel for what doesn't flow well when they point things out. Sure, sometimes they can confuse personal preference for something a bit more objective, but on the whole, the reason they're there is to draw attention to things that don't work as well as they could, so the author can fix it. And no, it isn't the beta reader's job to rewrite prose, but they're not barred from making suggestions - which the author can then accept, reject or take into account as appropriate.

The book is the author's baby and responsibility, but that doesn't mean insight from others can't be hugely valuable. Occasionally input from others misses the mark; they're human too, they make mistakes.

If a beta reader is trying to impose something, trying to take control of an author's work, then it would be an apropriate response to say goodbye to them, but it sounds like Brian's beta reader is generally very helpful and that Brian is unsure on this one point on this occasion.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

If you're worried about the reader getting confused about the other two's characteristics you set them up earlier, even if it's only a different character's perspectives. So have your scout call "fidget boy" Fidget a few pages earlier and "lead foot" Lead Foot as well. That way the reader knows wo your scout is talking about when he says fidget boy and lead foot, even if it isn't technically true.

 

[BWFoster78]

I don't think a beta reader that gets annoyed by trivial matters that are strictly personal preference is going to help you. It's not a beta reader's job to rewrite your prose.

To each his own, but my writing has progressed quite a bit because of this beta reader.

EDIT: I dispute that this is a "trivial matter." Granted, there are much bigger fish to fry in the grand scheme of things, but the draft that the beta reader is commenting on is an advanced one. I think it's absolutely the job of the beta reader to point out portions that feel stilted or awkward. In this case, I'm just not sure if this is objectively or subjectively "off."

 

[Devor]

I'll add another voice in favor of Steerpike's examples. As for the title question, I'll note that Steerpike's examples actually read more like a list - and are still better.

On that, I find it weird that "limp girl" doesn't get a parallel or even contrasting sentence structure. It feels noticeably missing, so I would suggest something to keep the sentence going without a comma after limp girl, something like "Or limp girl over there" or "This limp girl you're so fond of." That's not anything anyone would notice or care about once you put it in context, but I think it would make it a better sentence (not my examples, specifically, but just breaking the parallelism in another way than leaving something out).

As for whether a beta reader should be strung out over this . . . . I wouldn't want a beta reader to spend more than twenty seconds marking it, unless they're a writer and know how talk about it as an example. Even then, there's usually better things to talk about.

 

[PaulineMRoss]

I think it's absolutely the job of the beta reader to point out portions that feel stilted or awkward. In this case, I'm just not sure if this is objectively or subjectively "off."

I would dispute that there's any such thing as objectively 'off'. Assuming the section is grammatically correct (and since you wrote it, Brian, it is, isn't it ?), then any interpretation of awkwardness is bound to be subjective. This particular beta reader found it clunky. If you asked a hundred different beta readers, you'd get a hundred different ideas of what constitutes a clunky moment. Only when they overlap, so that several of them point out one particular passage, can you say that perhaps that passage needs looking at again. And you might still feel it's right for that particular character and situation.

Honestly, the average reader is going to be so engrossed (one hopes) that they'll just sail past stuff like this. It certainly wouldn't bother me.

 

[BWFoster78]

I would dispute that there's any such thing as objectively 'off'. Assuming the section is grammatically correct (and since you wrote it, Brian, it is, isn't it ?), then any interpretation of awkwardness is bound to be subjective. This particular beta reader found it clunky. If you asked a hundred different beta readers, you'd get a hundred different ideas of what constitutes a clunky moment. Only when they overlap, so that several of them point out one particular passage, can you say that perhaps that passage needs looking at again. And you might still feel it's right for that particular character and situation.

Honestly, the average reader is going to be so engrossed (one hopes) that they'll just sail past stuff like this. It certainly wouldn't bother me.

True enough. In this case my definition of objective is definitely subjective

I think that, by objective, I meant: is this something that only a tiny portion, or only one person, would ever object to or is it something that is likely to cause a decent percentage of people to stumble.

As a beta reader, I've certainly made the comment, "This sounded off to me." I couldn't really quantify how "off" or even say why if felt that way, but I think the author needed to know that one person, at least, thought that revising the sentence structure might be in order.

As for as the average reader is concerned, I think I'm like a certain brand of car: I relentlessly pursue perfection.

As my justification for doing so, it is my belief that a single clunky sentence or "mistake" isn't likely to produce an adverse reaction for a reader, but the impact of these "mistakes" are magnified with quantity. A single sentence is clunky? No one will notice or care. String a few clunky sentences together, and a lot of people will notice and care.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

I like Steerpike's second version of the sentence, save that I wouldn't have limp girl seperated from the other two. So I'd have the descriptive piece - he gestured at a, b and c in turn. It's about trying to make the prose as simple and direct as possible.

As for your beta reader, keep him. It's maybe not his place to tell you how to write it, but it is surely his place to point out what doesn't work for him. What sounds awkward. And he's doing that. And at the end of the day (night falls! - sorry couldn't resist,) - but if he's noticed that and thinks it reads badly then the chances are that others will too.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Svrtnsse]

2. “Less so than if any of you were with me. I’m trained to scout and won’t get caught, unlike lead foot or fidget boy." Brant gestured toward Xan and Dylan in turn. “Or limp girl. Do you understand?"

I too like this. It still lists all three items, but it groups them differently which changes the rhythm.
By pairing two of the items in the list together they're reduced to one item making the list one of two items instead of three.

I'm feeling that the number of items listed is important to the listing of them. The way I write I tend to list things in pairs, meaning my lists usually have two or four items and more rarely three; a bit like this:

There were pots and pans, bowls and plates, anything you'd need to prepare a meal — except food.