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Bad Writing Advice

I really hate it when people say: why don't you write a book like...John Grisham/Stephen King/JK Rowling/GRR Martin because that would really sell, unlike all that weird stuff you write.

I even get fan mail and reviews these days, but still friends, family and colleagues ask...why don't you write a book like...[insert generic mega-seller]
 

Weaver

Sage
Bad writing "advice" I've gotten in the past:

"Why don't you write real stories instead of all this imaginary stuff?"

"You should only write about characters like yourself. Men can't write about women, and women can't write about men."

"You're from Kentucky, so you should be writing about Kentucky things, not this imaginary stuff."

"Nobody likes to read first person."

"All readers prefer first person."

"Readers prefer present tense -- you should only write in that."

"Men won't read a story with a female main character, and women won't read a story with a male main character."

"No one likes a story without lots of sex scenes. They only read it for the sex anyway."

"This story would be better if you added vampires to it."

(Those last 3 are all things said by my former sister-in-law -- oh, how I hate her!)

"Stop using big words!!!!!"

"If you write a female MC, remember to make the character a lot more emotional because all women are like that." (The exact quote: "I’m getting the impression the narrative is male. I can’t pinpoint exactly why though I think if you could make it more emotional (in the bedroom females are more emotionally lead, where is males are more physically turned on, maybe you can apply this kind of concept to some of the details you’ve given")

"You can't write science fiction if you don't have a degree in physics."

"You can't be a writer at all if you don't have a degree in English."
 

Trick

Auror
I'll do one bad and one good:

"Only worry about getting a real job and forget writing." - A teacher (Not English, fortunately)


"The richest and poorest people in the world are writers, artists and salesmen. If you want to succeed at any of those, you better know your stuff." - My Dad
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Show, don't tell.

What the critiquers are thinking: Nevermind that the story is poorly structured, the protagonist is a bore, and the dialogue rambles - you should fix this one telling sentence because that cliche is all I feel comfortable talking about.

What authors hear: Fix this one sentence and your story will be good to go!
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
I find what Weaver wrote above interesting.

"Men won't read a story with a female main character, and women won't read a story with a male main character."

I'm curious where this idea comes from as it seems to be more prevalent than you'd imagine. Is there marketing evidence to back this up or are people just pulling this from out of thin air?

I tend to read fiction that has multiple protagonists, some which are male and some female, and I have no preference really.

"This story would be better if you added vampires to it."

Any advice that begins "This story would be better if you added _________ to it" is almost always horrible. Even if the advice is "This story would be better if you added chocolate and peanut butter to it."

Hmm...chocolate and peanut butter story...
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I'm curious where this idea comes from as it seems to be more prevalent than you'd imagine. Is there marketing evidence to back this up or are people just pulling this from out of thin air?

I've seen some marketing studies that draw the conclusion regarding male and female writers (not characters), but I've never seen the underlying evidence they're based on. Anecdotally, I do know a few guys who won't read books written by women. If they're written by men but have a female MC, they seem to be fine with it.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I'm curious where this idea comes from as it seems to be more prevalent than you'd imagine. Is there marketing evidence to back this up or are people just pulling this from out of thin air?

A lot of that kind of research is proprietary, so evidence might be hard to find. But whatever the evidence says, it's not going to be as simple as the quoted statement. For instance, if you could find a good break down of the data, you might find that it's more like men and women want different things from a female protagonist, while they're less picky about what they want to see from a male protagonist. If that's the case, if you write women that appeal to one group, you lose the other, while if you write with male characters you're on common ground.

But that's a hypothetical guess, mostly to suggest how nuanced these things can get.
 

SineNomine

Minstrel
I'm not sure if it qualifies for the worst, but the most INTERESTING bad advice I've seen definitely comes from Stephen King's On Writing. Interesting for the obvious reason given that it's from a great book by a great author. He spends some time really trying to convince you that outlining doesn't make great stories, that it's generally a waste of time and makes your story predictable. What you should really do is think up an interesting idea or situation or person and then just start writing and see what flows! Then it is so much more real and personal!

It's pretty obvious how silly that is, everyone has their own style somewhere between perfect planning and perfect seat-of-your-pants writing, and you should probably try and find your place in it rather than forcing the issue. If I am not mistaken, he even walked that back later on since he definitely outlines some books.


Oh, how about the one I think everyone who grew up in the American education system probably went through? "You want to eliminate the word said from your writing, it's so boring and drab and lifeless. There are so many other better words that are more evocative of what characters are doing, so use them!"
 
Hi,

Worst advice I ever got (and keep getting now and then) Don't self publish. Go through an agent and get trade pubbed. I tried that, and for over a year I sent out queries and got not a lot back. And if I'd kept doing that I'm fairly sure I'd still be back there trying to hock my first book instead of now having 13 out there. I'd probably be on prosac too for depression, and might well have given up completely.

At some point if you want to be a writer (and I'm not talking about commercial success here) you have to publish. You have to put your work out there and let it receive the brick bats and bouquets it merits. It's only then that you can truly advance yourself as a writer.

Cheers, Greg.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
I actually think part of that is great advice:

"Find out what's currently popular in the market..."

Just that part. It's always good to know what other people are doing. That doesn't mean you have to copy it.
 
Hi,

Worst advice I ever got (and keep getting now and then) Don't self publish. Go through an agent and get trade pubbed. I tried that, and for over a year I sent out queries and got not a lot back. And if I'd kept doing that I'm fairly sure I'd still be back there trying to hock my first book instead of now having 13 out there. I'd probably be on prosac too for depression, and might well have given up completely.

At some point if you want to be a writer (and I'm not talking about commercial success here) you have to publish. You have to put your work out there and let it receive the brick bats and bouquets it merits. It's only then that you can truly advance yourself as a writer.

Cheers, Greg.

I have a different take on this. Self publish by all means, but don't do it too early. I believe that you improve as a writer when you can see where you used to go wrong.

Sometimes this comes from improving self insight, but it also comes when you start to get a bit of feedback from publishing professionals, and take it on board. It is really hard to get published in the mainstream, and you have to improve out of sight to even get considered. I was writing seriously for 17 years before I had a book published, and I know that I am an infinitely better writer now than when I started.

Thing is, I thought I was great. My first efforts were certainly full of good ideas and flashes of good writing, but the whole package was dreadful. I can see that now, and I can also see why publishers take me seriously now, because the full package is honed and crafted into something worth reading.

My concern with self publishing too early is that I suspect too many writers are so desperate for an audience they publish unrefined first drafts without trying to improve after rejection.

If you don't respond to rejection by trying to get better, you may never grow into the writer you are capable of becoming.
 

A. E. Lowan

Forum Mom
Leadership
My worst advice:

"You should write romance. It's easy to write and easy to publish."
~ Yes, this was from my mother, also a writer, who notably tried for 20 years to write and publish romances and trained me to write that way. Gotta give her points for being tenacious. I was telling her the whole time her strength was in satire, but what do I know? She changed my diapers. What's she publishing now? Satire. /facepalm

"Why does your rebel princess have to kill her mother to take the throne? Can't they make up or something?"
~ Again, my mother. I love my mother, but I have a lot of parent issues and they tend to pop up in my writing. Between that and the, shall we say, liberal views on sexuality, I don't show my mom my writing anymore, at least not until something makes it into galleys.

"You need to write poetry. This fantasy nonsense isn't real writing."
~ My high school writing teacher at my arts school. She was a poet and was determined to make the rest of us poets, as well. The woman would actually LOCK ME IN A ROOM until I produced poetry to enter into contests, because I hated writing it so much. And then I took awards in every poetry and essay contest I entered. She honestly thought I was the Spawn of Satan.

"Writing is just a pipe dream, you know. You're never going to get anywhere with it."
~ My personal favorite, from my mother-in-law. Lovely woman. She also doesn't get to read our stuff because she doesn't understand the genre - and yet she is a Star Trek freak. I just don't get it.
 
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T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
One of my most hated....

"Write what you know."

I'm sorry but that's just plain boring. Thankfully, it doesn't completely jive with the fantasy genre. Regardless, one of the wonderful aspects of writing is exploring the lives of others in events that would make me shudder and long for the comforts of home. That's what I want to read.... that's what I want to write. I certainly want to make events plausible. That's where research comes in.... but I don't want to live them.
 
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A. E. Lowan

Forum Mom
Leadership
Hi,

Worst advice I ever got (and keep getting now and then) Don't self publish. Go through an agent and get trade pubbed. I tried that, and for over a year I sent out queries and got not a lot back. And if I'd kept doing that I'm fairly sure I'd still be back there trying to hock my first book instead of now having 13 out there. I'd probably be on prosac too for depression, and might well have given up completely.

At some point if you want to be a writer (and I'm not talking about commercial success here) you have to publish. You have to put your work out there and let it receive the brick bats and bouquets it merits. It's only then that you can truly advance yourself as a writer.

Cheers, Greg.

Grats on getting so many books out there! 13 is a very nice number, and you are rightfully proud of that. One thing I will say, though, is you probably got frustrated a bit too quickly. 1 year querying your first book is actually a very short amount of time in this business, especially since it's a first book you're talking about. First books are like first born children - we love them, but we also learn from them what to do and what not to do when the next one comes along. Unless you hit it right out of the park, most people's first books won't sell, not because they suck as writers but because they're still learning. The general rule of thumb for publishing traditionally is go ahead and get that first book ready to go and go ahead and send those queries - you never know, maybe you did hit it out of the park. But while those queries make the rounds, write book #2, which will be better than the first one because of what you learned. And so on and so on. This can go on for years as you hone your craft and learn with each book you write. Traditional publishing is a SLOOOOOOOOW business, where a couple of years can pass between a signed contract with a publisher to a book hitting the shelf, and that's just after it's been accepted.

In my opinion, being published does not make you a writer. The drive to write makes you a writer. What being published does is makes you an author - goodness, I love the sound of that word! So, I am very glad you found your niche in self-publishing and that it's working out for you. But for those who are looking to the traditional route, settle in for a long wait. And for heaven's sake, keep writing while those queries are in the mail! I was always taught that being able to paper your office walls with rejection letters is a mark of honor, and getting the personalized ones is a reason to party. Those are the best! They mean your work was seen and liked enough to earn a personal response, even if it did not fit the agent's/editor's needs at that time. They mean you're on the right track.
 

Rinzei

Troubadour
I had the standard "show, don't tell" advice - "Don't tell me the old woman screamed, let her scream - EEEEEEEH!"

While that teacher was a great english teacher, it never settled well with me. I don't always think it works (particular in the example he gave - a blood-curdling scream on-page doesn't actually read very nicely).
 

A. E. Lowan

Forum Mom
Leadership
I had the standard "show, don't tell" advice - "Don't tell me the old woman screamed, let her scream - EEEEEEEH!"

While that teacher was a great english teacher, it never settled well with me. I don't always think it works (particular in the example he gave - a blood-curdling scream on-page doesn't actually read very nicely).

While we're having good fun ripping on "Show, Don't Tell" in another thread, I can see where your teacher was coming from. Which do you think is the more dynamic line?

The old woman screamed.

Her scream rent the air, echoing through the night dark house before it was silenced with bone snapping finality.
 
Hi guys,

Yes I agree there is a time for publishing and you can do it too early. But personally for me I think that over a year spent getting rejection letters was long enough. I admire those who can sit longer and wait for letter after letter, half of which never even came (I think I got 18 or 19 replies back from nearly 40 sent out) but I couldn't do it. Maybe my tolerance is low. However the one thing I can say is that in all that time spent sending out queries, I learned nothing about writing. Not from that anyway.

I think everyone who considers themselves a serious writer needs to be aiming always at getting his writing out there to be judged by an audience. And when I say aiming, I mean more than just dreaming, wishing and hoping. I mean that you as a writer you have a plan and you have resolved to complete it. Writing is in the end a communicative art, and if you don't get your work out there somehow you're not communicating. It's like a painter sitting in his room painting only for himself. Or an actor practicing his craft eternally by himself, but never going on stage. Until you do that, until you put your work out there for others to read, you're not just not an author, you're also not really a full writer. There is something missing.

Once you've got your work out there, in whatever manner you can, then your entire world changes. First, when you've truly committed yourself to the journey, there were all the things you probably as a writer writing a story didn't think so seriously about. Editing, covers, formating, marketing. Knowing that you're going to take that step pushes you to master these things. And then there's the feedback. Sure it's not all good, but in the end it's what you need. The good the bad and the strange. That feedback even when it rubs you the wrong way and leaves you bleeding on the floor, will help you to lift your game in a way that nothing else can.

Sitting at home sending out query letter after query letter, most of which will never be answered, and working on your next book can't do the same thing for you. In fact it can even become disabling. There is a certain comfort in being able to send out letters and have them come back 'no' or not at all with no explanation. It's a rut which you can get stuck in. It's never nice getting a 'Dear Sir thank you but' letter, but after a while you get used to it and you can return to your dreaming about when one day you will be published instead of biting the bullet and actually putting your work out there.

So yes, my advice is that if you want to be a serious writer you have to always know it will be published and will see an audience. You need a plan, and one with achievable goals that you know you will achieve. You can't allow yourself the luxury of simply writing whatever you feel like forever and dreaming about 'one day'.

Cheers, Greg.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
I've been lucky. No one has ever given me writing advice; at least, not for fiction writing. Plenty of advice from my professors on how to write history. Detailed, painful advice, and none of it bad.

There's plenty of advice to be read on the Interwebs, of course, but none of that is directed specifically at me. All the stuff I've adopted is all good advice, and all the stuff I've rejected is bad advice.
 
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