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Bad Writing Advice

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
For my money, I love very detailed critiques. What some may call nitpicking, I call valuable. The only time I don't consider someone's comment is when style becomes the issue. In the end, you always have the option on whether or not to utilize their advice.

You really need to find critique partners that understand your goals, style, & vision. Establishing a good group to work with can do wonders. One thing though...You as the author bear some responsibility for directing the people critiquing your work. Tell them what you're looking for specifically. Also, consider a critique partner like you would any relationship. It may take time to work well together, and effort from both parties.
 

Weaver

Sage
Ok, I get that. If something is confusing or out of order then yes, I want to know. I also would like to know more than just how the story made readers feel. Other things are important too. I'm talking about this: "you shouldn't use loose with bonnet", with no explanation as of why.

......ok? How else am I supposed to let the reader know she doesn't like tying her bonnets tight? Its these little things that piss me off and make me reluctant to share my writing, though I know its important to. My point is that no one has to do it the same way. So long as the message is getting across in a clear, direct, professional and beautiful way then to knitpick over certain phrases or whatever is bogus imo.

Under any circumstances, if they can't tell you WHY they're suggesting a change, the suggestion is... questionable, at best.
 
I now have quite a large group of beta readers - none of them are writers, but they are all intelligent readers who know what they like. They also know my work now (esp the published work) which, I think, makes a difference.

In fact, I've noticed a change in my beta readers over the years. When I was first ready to start showing my unpublished stuff to people, there was a bit of reluctance. I suspect some didn't want to have to tell me how crap it was, and others thought I might be setting some sort of IQ test for them. I got few takers and not many had much of any value to say. But they were my friends, so who else was I gonna get? As the years went by and I remained unpublished, my writing career was not taken at all seriously and beta readers, if they gave me any feedback at all, tended to be quite critical (even patronising) without offering much in the way of encouragement.

The change happened when I started writing the book which eventually became my first published book. I had only written 30 odd pages when I was at a party one night and started telling a bloke (Bruce) about my new opus. He was someone I only knew tangentially, but he expressed strong interest in the project and asked to read it. So I gave him the 30 pages one Sunday afternoon, and to my amazement, he rang me the following morning at work to tell me how much he enjoyed it and when could he have the next 30 pages?

This was a turning point. I had my first ever fan and it had three effects - it really drove me to finish the ms because I was a glutton for his feedback; it gave me confidence in the story and in my own ability; and best of all, he would talk about the book glowingly in front of my older friends/beta readers, which really turned them around. One by one, they started asking to read the ms, and word started getting out that this time I was really onto something - which of course had a compounding effect on my confidence and desire to get the thing finished.

My third book is just about to go to press, and my beta readers have changed profoundly. They are now all fans and where they might, in the past, have simply found fault, now they have enough confidence in my ability to trust that I know what I'm doing. They know that if something seems wrong or strange then it's probably deliberate, but if not, then them pointing it out is very valuable to me. They are now more than beta readers - they are a test audience. In my new book, two really important changes were made due to the comments of friends and, I fully believe, these changes will make all the difference to the book's prospects of success.

But the beta reader change came when someone from the left field of my life took a genuine and enthusiastic interest in my work and it really helped me. I guess what I'm saying is that people close to you are no good as critics until you are successful enough for that part of your relationship to change. Until then, look to the peripheries of your acquaintance to find interested readers without too much emotional investment to cloud their judgment.

As for Bruce, he had read the entire ms 30 times (he says) by the time it was published. Yes that is a tad obsessive, but his reward? He is on the cover and has had much enjoyment pointing it out to his friends in bookshops.
 

PaulineMRoss

Inkling
This was a turning point. I had my first ever fan ...

Y'know, I think this is quite a good argument for just putting stuff out there. You had terrible trouble finding that first fan, and in the end it only happened by chance. How many more years might have drifted by before you found a Bruce? But for those who don't want to depend on chance, maybe the answer is simply to publish anyway, in some way, so that the fans have a chance to find you.
 
C

Chessie

Guest
The Dark One and Pauline, awesome points both of you. And the Dark One, that story was great! I loved reading about your success and your friend on the cover of your book. :D I completely agree far as beta readers go. My tiny group consists of one fan that I got from writing fanfic (his feedback is amazing), my two sisters, and my best friend. I think our relationships can all survive the bulk crap of my work haha.
 

Rinzei

Troubadour
This was a turning point. I had my first ever fan and it had three effects - it really drove me to finish the ms because I was a glutton for his feedback; it gave me confidence in the story and in my own ability; and best of all, he would talk about the book glowingly in front of my older friends/beta readers, which really turned them around.

I think that was a big part of what put me in my lull (which I'm still trying to crawl out of) - I got to a point where it felt no one else would read it or care about it. I tell myself over and over again that I shouldn't care if no one else cares about it, I should do it if I enjoy it, etc. - but I know deep down that that's just not how it works. I do care if someone else cares about my writing. I've dreamt up this whole world and all these people - I don't want to be the only one to enjoy them.
 

A. E. Lowan

Forum Mom
Leadership
Y'know, I think this is quite a good argument for just putting stuff out there. You had terrible trouble finding that first fan, and in the end it only happened by chance. How many more years might have drifted by before you found a Bruce? But for those who don't want to depend on chance, maybe the answer is simply to publish anyway, in some way, so that the fans have a chance to find you.

Pauline, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I think The Dark One makes an excellent argument for putting stuff out there when it's ready and not before, not for "just putting it out there." What would it have done to his reputation as a writer if he had just thrown out all those stories his other beta readers were luke-warm to patronizing about, only to discover they were all right? It wasn't until he found the story that struck a spark, when all his hard work finally paid off with the ignition of experience, that he found that fan.
 

PaulineMRoss

Inkling
I've dreamt up this whole world and all these people - I don't want to be the only one to enjoy them.

Absolutely. I'm a great believer in the idea that there are *always* people out there who'll love what you write. However esoteric or quirky or wild, there *will* be an audience for it. It might be small, but it's out there, somewhere. And if you never publish, no one will ever get the chance to love those characters and that world.

Just before my mum died, she told me about this story she'd dreamt up. She had it all worked out, the characters, the whole plot, she'd carried it round in her head for decades. But she never wrote it down, and now it's gone for ever.

So, people - write your stories and then publish them. And isn't it lovely that these days you can just do that?
 

JCFarnham

Auror
I can honestly say I've only truly improved since acquiring myself a decent beta reader. He spots things I don't, He pushes me to keep going, the list goes on.

It's my experience that its hard to improve without such a relationship. I'm sure there's a few people out there who can write in a bubble, produce a work of genius, and get it published without any sort of feedback. (Wasn't that Hemingway's method?) But for the rest of us its time to think about letting people read your writing.

As Chuck Wendig says: you're not a precious snowflake.

The worst advice I've gotten? Well I can pinpoint anything exact, but I've always been wary of the popular advice. Even if I'm told by fifty people that something works, I'd rather figure out if it works for myself first.
 

Scribble

Archmage
I'm sure there's a few people out there who can write in a bubble, produce a work of genius, and get it published without any sort of feedback. (Wasn't that Hemingway's method?) But for the rest of us its time to think about letting people read your writing.

Hemingway was a brutal self-editor. His own self-criticism was clear and strong enough to turn out books that are still read today.

These three quotes echo of his echo that.

“Write drunk; edit sober.”
I need passion, inspiration, and ideas to create a story, but I need a clear, sober mind to shape and carve that raw stuff into a book:

“The first draft of anything is s***.”
This lets my ego off the hook for producing s***. It reminds me that I can turn that s*** into something someone would want to read.

“All you have to do is write one true sentence. Write the truest sentence that you know.”
This is the golden rule by which I must assess my work.

As Chuck Wendig says: you're not a precious snowflake.
Chuck Wendig is awesome. I follow him on Twitter, love his articles.
 

PaulineMRoss

Inkling
Pauline, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I think The Dark One makes an excellent argument for putting stuff out there when it's ready and not before, not for "just putting it out there." What would it have done to his reputation as a writer if he had just thrown out all those stories his other beta readers were luke-warm to patronizing about, only to discover they were all right? It wasn't until he found the story that struck a spark, when all his hard work finally paid off with the ignition of experience, that he found that fan.

OK. The question is, when is a book ready? You seem to be implying that it's only ready when some outside agency (beta readers, editors, critique buddies, whoever) says that it's ready. I'm saying that authors need to have more confidence in themselves. If an author has been writing for some time (ie this isn't just the first book that got a completed first draft) and has polished it to the best of his/her ability and has learned something about the craft of writing along the way, then there comes a point when they have to just let it go. Waiting years and years for some arbitrary third party to come along and say: yes, now it's ready, is, frankly, a criminal waste of creative energy.

There are people out there who want to read these stories. Please don't withhold them just because you're waiting for someone else's approval. The first book is always flawed. The next one will be better. They don't need to be perfect, because readers just don't care.

Footnote: I should say for clarity that when I talk about 'putting it out there', I don't necessarily mean uploading it to Amazon and slapping a $5 price tag on it. Putting it on a blog, or uploading it to a free site is also publishing.
 

JCFarnham

Auror
Hemingway was a brutal self-editor. His own self-criticism was clear and strong enough to turn out books that are still read today.

Who am I thinking of then? The famous anecdote is that he used to sit in a shop window with a type writer, churn out the manuscript and send it straight to the newspaper...

I feel it was a writer of the same era. Anyway just thought that was an interesting one to tell for those of us who spend years on a draft.
 

Scribble

Archmage
Who am I thinking of then? The famous anecdote is that he used to sit in a shop window with a type writer, churn out the manuscript and send it straight to the newspaper...

I feel it was a writer of the same era. Anyway just thought that was an interesting one to tell for those of us who spend years on a draft.

I'm sure there are many people who can whip out a draft and call it done. I believe there are, and have been far fewer who can do that and produce something readable.
 

Addison

Auror
"Start the writing off with coffee." Every article of writing advice has some mention of coffee. Before I found that advice I wasn't a coffee drinker. Now I am most definitely not. Coffee in me is like a pound of sugar is Speedy Gonzalez. I couldn't sit still and I kept running around the house like a crazy person imagining my story play out at fast speed. When I crashed down with a monster head ache I couldn't remember anything that I dreamt up.

NO COFFEE!!
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
A blog post relevant to parts of this thread, to wit, whether it's a good idea to wait until someone 'approves' your writing:

How Frustration Can Lead to Breakthrough and Picking Yourself | Positive Writer

Good blog post. However, I'd like to add that "picking yourself" could also just mean having the confidence to submit to traditional publishers. I think a fear of rejection is a big part of what holds some writers from going the traditional route or even putting themselves out there in general. Self-publishing allows no rejection unless readers just reject it as a whole.

I like the hybrid approach that a lot of authors are now taking that Michal J. Sullivan highlighted in this interview here: An Interview with Hybrid Author Michael J. Sullivan | Digital Book World

Why not be in both camps if you have the drive? You can pick yourself and allow someone else to pick you as well.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
OK. The question is, when is a book ready?

This is a question I've asked myself a lot!

On one hand, I agree with you completely. The author is, and has to be, the ultimate judge of what he puts out there. Above all, you have to meet your criteria.

The problem is that, as an author, I'm too close to the work. I don't always see the flaws. Maybe I missed something because I knew what I meant or maybe I didn't have the skill level/knowledge to see the problem.

How many times have you read an author's early stuff and really enjoyed it. Then, their later stuff falls a bit flat. Turns out, in the beginning they really put the time and effort in to make it right and listened to their editor's advice. Later, their heads grew with their pocketbooks, and they started just churning stuff out.

My personal feeling is that I don't want to put anything out there unless it's good enough, and I'm careful to get feedback from people that I trust in order to make that decision.

Another thought:

I want to succeed as a writer (which I define as eventually making a living from it). The only path I can see to that success that doesn't involve luck is:

1. Write something really good.
2. Put that work out there.
3. The work is so good that it gains me fans who will read other works I produce and encourage friends to do the same.
4. Go back to step 1.

If what I put out there in step 1 doesn't accomplish point 3, then it's a failure.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
T
1. Write something really good.
2. Put that work out there.
3. The work is so good that it gains me fans who will read other works I produce and encourage friends to do the same.
4. Go back to step 1.

I think that's right. The one thing I would like to point out, however, is that these days you have to produce quantity as well. This seems to be especially true if you're going to self-publish, and looks like it is becoming more true of traditionally-published authors.

For some writers, step 1 takes way too long because of endless edits and revisions. If you're starting out putting a book out there every three years, I think the odds are you're going to have problems.
 
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