What defines fridging? What's the borderline? (Potentially triggery)

[teacup]

Note that I said the world, not just other minor characters. Phil Coulson's death in Avengers was intended to give everyone something to avenge (because, you know, they couldn't have possible gotten mad enough to pull themselves together and defeat Loki otherwise), and we were meant to assume that Hawkeye and Black Widow, for instance, were as affected as Iron Man and Captain America.

But it had absolutely no effect on the rest of the world they inhabited, which is why Whedon was able to cave to fandom's demands that he resurrect Coulson, without screwing up the broader world. I haven't watched Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. so I don't know what the official explanation for Coulson's return is, but the fact that it happened at all is evidence that there were no lasting effects from his death, apart from accomplishing something that could have been done some other way, and that adds up to a pointless death.

I could be wrong, but wasn't his "death" made up by Fury to do this effect? He never actually died, as I remember. (Something to do with the Captain America cards being in Coulson's locker, not his jacket.)

 

[Penpilot]

I haven't watched Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. so I don't know what the official explanation for Coulson's return is, but the fact that it happened at all is evidence that there were no lasting effects from his death, apart from accomplishing something that could have been done some other way, and that adds up to a pointless death.

A little FYI. One of the plot threads being dealt with for Agents of Shield is how Coulson recovered. It's not just being explained away as he got better. There's the official story and the unofficial mystery of it. His death and resurrection is life altering experience for Coulson and it's impact is very much felt by those around him.

Yes, it should affect your MC, because they're the reader's viewpoint into your world and they were ostensibly close to that character. But if it only affects your MC, something is broken.

Given your examples, how would you have wanted those issues dealt with? With say for example Wash's death, how would you have wanted that handled? They buried and mourned him along with the other characters killed at the end of the movie. Is that not enough?

 

[saellys]

I could be wrong, but wasn't his "death" made up by Fury to do this effect? He never actually died, as I remember. (Something to do with the Captain America cards being in Coulson's locker, not his jacket.)

He pretty clearly actually died onscreen. The trading cards were in Coulson's locker; Fury took them out and apparently went to the trouble of spattering them with blood so he could use Coulson's death as motivation for our heroes to pull themselves together--after Coulson died, not in advance. They didn't have anything to do with Coulson not actually being dead.

A little FYI. One of the plot threads being dealt with for Agents of Shield is how Coulson recovered. It's not just being explained away as he got better. There's the official story and the unofficial mystery of it. His death and resurrection is life altering experience for Coulson and it's impact is very much felt by those around him.

Ooh, good to know. I should probably actually watch Agents sometime.

Given your examples, how would you have wanted those issues dealt with? With say for example Wash's death, how would you have wanted that handled? They buried and mourned him along with the other characters killed at the end of the movie. Is that not enough?

Actually, now that I think about it, Wash was a relatively good example, in spite of the short amount of time after his death to show the effects. Serenity was left without a pilot, which is a pretty major practical consideration, but we got that last scene to show that River was stepping in (good closure for her too, since she didn't have much else to do on the ship).

Now, Penny in Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog? That happened about two minutes before the end of the story and all we got afterward was an "ultimate descent into eeeeeeeeeeevil" montage. Doctor Horrible was already descending into evil, so Penny's death at his hands only served to accelerate that process a little. I would have vastly preferred it if she realized who Billy was and walked away from both him and Captain Hammer, for instance. Or even propelled him into a redemption arc somehow. As it is, her death was pointless.

 

[psychotick]

Hi Saellys,

Can't comment about Agents of Shield and the Avengers since I've not yet seen it I'm afraid. But I'd agree to an extent with the rest.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[GeekDavid]

Saellys,

It's called retconning. Very common in comic books. I dunno how many times Joker's origin has been retconned, but he's even made a joke about if he has to have a past, he'd prefer it to be multiple-choice!

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Now, Penny in Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog? That happened about two minutes before the end of the story and all we got afterward was an "ultimate descent into eeeeeeeeeeevil" montage. Doctor Horrible was already descending into evil, so Penny's death at his hands only served to accelerate that process a little. I would have vastly preferred it if she realized who Billy was and walked away from both him and Captain Hammer, for instance. Or even propelled him into a redemption arc somehow. As it is, her death was pointless.

I wouldn't call her death pointless. It didn't serve to accelerate his decent into evil - it destroyed him. Plus, while sure, she could have walked away and taken the plot in another direction, her death had a significant impact on the audience that any other story arc wouldn't have been able to achieve. I know I cried, and I'm not a crier. Whedon evoked emotion with the manner of her death, which you can't do with just a cheap shot bumping off of a minor character.

 

[wordwalker]

(I so hope people realize the thread's title includes HERE BE SPOILERS...)

Both Penny and Wash have one thing in common: they happened right near their story's end, so whatever grieving there was still got cut short. In one sense that's inherently cheapening it; in another it's a legitimate way to get maximum impact out things. And Penny works especially well because it just took the course the Doc was already on and jumped him to the final reward and price of what was coming.

 

[saellys]

It's called retconning.

I'm familiar with the term.

I wouldn't call her death pointless. It didn't serve to accelerate his decent into evil - it destroyed him. Plus, while sure, she could have walked away and taken the plot in another direction, her death had a significant impact on the audience that any other story arc wouldn't have been able to achieve. I know I cried, and I'm not a crier. Whedon evoked emotion with the manner of her death, which you can't do with just a cheap shot bumping off of a minor character.

You and I had very different reactions.

Both Penny and Wash have one thing in common: they happened right near their story's end, so whatever grieving there was still got cut short. In one sense that's inherently cheapening it; in another it's a legitimate way to get maximum impact out things. And Penny works especially well because it just took the course the Doc was already on and jumped him to the final reward and price of what was coming.

Right, I already said that Penny's death served only to accelerate Doctor Horrible's descent into evil, so how is that a thing that made it "work"?