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What I'm Saying Is, The Search For Equality Is Pretty Messy

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
That's been your approach to the entire thread, hasn't it?

This entire thread, I've perceived that people are saying, "Diversity is good" without explaining why. I've explained problems I see with it and asked for an explanation. I see that as the opposite of dismissive.

You don't say, "Brian, please explain why you think this is so." You don't even seem to listen as I try to explain. Instead, you dismiss my answers as "rationalizations."

As for "prejudice," I'm talking about your statement that including a diverse element is necessarily weakening or detracting from the story, without having seen the actual story. I don't think you can make that determination without actually reading any given implementation of it to see if it works. That position is, by definition, prejudicial. You're making a determination prior to having seen the thing.

You and I both know that, given this subject matter, "predudice" is a loaded word.

Again, you seem to have no idea what I'm talking about as far as what tight writing and focus means.

merely that you're judging a work as weak or having random elements merely because of an idea, without having seen the actual work.

I'll try to explain again, but I get the feeling that you have no real desire to understand what I'm trying to say...

Early in Cars 2, Tow Mater encounters a lemon that needs to be towed. It's a humorous scene, and the introduction of the character of the lemon appears to be quite random. Turns out, the entire plot of the movie revolved around cars who are lemons trying to gain power in the world.

It's that kind of focus that I consider to be tremendous writing. If I'm going to introduce an element, that element should impact the plot.

You seem to feel that my fantasy world should mirror the real world. The real world has gay people and therefore my fantasy world should have gay people. I disagree. I think I should only add elements from the real world into my fantasy world if there is a story reason to have them.

It's a philosophy that I think works for me.

I thought you were the champion for writers finding their own way...
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
One thing I'm finding interesting that has come up are "defaults." So different people have mentioned they default to a certain kind of main character. The main question I'd like to ask to those who mentioned this: Is this something you do for every single story your write?

My thought process when I sit down to write is "how can I write a different main character than I wrote in my last story?" I don't usually set out to do one kind of "default" character every time. Being that I'm a straight white male, sometimes my main character happens to be a straight white male. In that instance, I look outside the bounds of race and sexuality sometimes to make my characters different. For example, job, class standing, age, etc.

My typical default is high school me - geeky and insecure around girls. I love writing about that guy winning the girl.

I also like writing female characters that are both sweet and tough.

As I get better at writing, I find myself getting more and more in the head of characters who don't resemble either archtype.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
You seem to feel that my fantasy world should mirror the real world. The real world has gay people and therefore my fantasy world should have gay people. I disagree. I think I should only add elements from the real world into my fantasy world if there is a story reason to have them.

It's a philosophy that I think works for me.

I thought you were the champion for writers finding their own way...

You're intentionally misreading my posts to bolster your arguments. It's dishonest.

I'll direct you back here: http://mythicscribes.com/forums/wri...arch-equality-pretty-messy-18.html#post146632
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
One thing I'm finding interesting that has come up are "defaults." So different people have mentioned they default to a certain kind of main character. The main question I'd like to ask to those who mentioned this: Is this something you do for every single story your write?

In the past when people talk about defaults, they're not talking about the protagonist or the society. They're talking about the innkeepers, the beggars, the soldiers, and other secondary or tertiary characters. Your MCs aren't a default but a conscious choice which reflects the kind of story you want to write. If someone wants to write about an MC that's somewhat like themselves, then who's to complain about that? But there's no reason that the vast majority of characters in a novel should follow that same pattern.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
There are many readers for whom a homogeneous society comes to distract from the writing because it will strike them as unbelievable.

Sorry, but I think this is total bunk.

If the reader doesn't find the world you created believable, it's because you didn't do a good enough job writing it.

When I read Watership Down, I believed in the world the rabbits lived in because the writer did a great job making the world real. Would it have somehow been more believable if he had mixed in some squirrels and hedgehogs?

A flyspeck village portrayed as being insular and far away from the center of an empire would be less believable if tons of races lived there.

Most of the time, I think you should recognize that the reader experience suffers from a lack of diversity.

Again, I see the statement that "it's better," but I don't see the reasoning.

So what's the problem?

Because there is no compelling reason to try to incorporate the pink clown. I'm not into trying to insert random elements. Why should I make my job any harder than it already is?
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
I don't have a problem with it at all of course, but I just wonder why certain people mentioned they're defaults are a certain kind of character. If people have read some of my work, I use hunter types of characters often. They've been different races, sexes, and had different personalities but have the same job in common: hunter. Something about monster hunters, bounty hunters and the like appeals to me. So I guess for me, this is the kind of character I like writing about at the moment. So yeah, definitely I don't begrudge anyone their choice for MC, it makes sense to me.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
You're intentionally misreading my posts to bolster your arguments. It's dishonest.

I'm "rationalizing" and "prejudice," and I'm the one who is being "dishonest?"

I'm trying to explain my point of view. I'm getting nothing from you but criticism of my arguments.

Perhaps it would help if you tried to explain what, exactly, am I being dishonest about?
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Sorry, but I think this is total bunk.

If the reader doesn't find the world you created believable, it's because you didn't do a good enough job writing it.

When I read Watership Down, I believed in the world the rabbits lived in because the writer did a great job making the world real. Would it have somehow been more believable if he had mixed in some squirrels and hedgehogs?

A flyspeck village portrayed as being insular and far away from the center of an empire would be less believable if tons of races lived there.

First, looking at extreme examples doesn't prove a point when we're talking about "most stories" and audience trends. If I've already said that some stories don't require diversity, then pointing to the "flyspeck village" and a story about bunny rabbits doesn't serve to make any kind of point at all.

Second, I absolutely agree that if a world is unbelievable then you didn't do a good job with it. But I've been arguing that accounting for diversity is part of what it takes to do a good job with it. You've been saying that if your world is diverse, there should be a reason for that. I agree with you one hundred percent. But I also think if your world is not diverse, there should be a reason for that, too. It's such a fundamental piece of reality that simply leaving this aspect of your world unaccounted for is unbelievable.
 

Shasjas

Scribe
As far as I can see BWFoster is saying that there should be a reason to mention these things. there is no reason in saying "oh this character is gay", unless that actually plays a part. Its the same as not saying that a certain charcter is straight. There is no reason to mention a characters sexuality at all unless the story requires it. That doesn't mean that there are no gay people in the world, just that its not an important feature of the story.
The same with race. You don't need to mention skin colour at all. Appearances can be left for the reader to imagine. Unless it serves a purpose.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
I don't have a problem with it at all of course, but I just wonder why certain people mentioned they're defaults are a certain kind of character.

I think it comes back to "you write what you know". I'm a straight white male and my main character is for all intents and purposes a straight white male - heavily influenced by my own personality (for better and for worse).

I've written other characters; men and women, elves and humans. What they so far all have in common is that I all find them appealing in some way. They're all characters that I wouldn't mind being if I was somehow mysteriously reborn in a fantasy world. I've not yet attempted to create a character in order to explore other options - perhaps I will, perhaps I won't.

I probably wouldn't write a gay pov character. Not because I have issues with homosexuality, but because I'm not confident I would be able to pull it off believably. Then again, I guess I could, if I chose not to focus too much on it and just treat them like any other person.

I guess what I'm doing is I'm writing characters that I can relate to and that I find fascinating, impressive or likable.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
But I also think if your world is not diverse, there should be a reason for that, too. It's such a fundamental piece of reality that simply leaving this aspect of your world unaccounted for is unbelievable.

You're probably think I'm choosing "extreme" examples again, but where does this concept stop? If diversity is an integral part of life, what about love? Should, then, every story include love unless you have a valid reason not to?

What about death? Who hasn't experienced the death of someone in their life? isn't that "a fundamental piece of reality?" Should, then, every story include the death of a loved one unless there is a valid reason not to.

Again, I'm not trying to choose extreme examples, but I really find your reasoning flawed here. You're saying, in essence, that diversity possesses special traits that make it something that has to be included. I reject that assumption.

You story should include what is needed for your story. If diversity is needed, include it. If not, don't.
 

Mindfire

Istar
One thing I'm finding interesting that has come up are "defaults." So different people have mentioned they default to a certain kind of main character. The main question I'd like to ask to those who mentioned this: Is this something you do for every single story your write?

In hindsight, I'd say yes. The personalities of my main characters differ, but their demographic traits remain fairly constant. Reuben is an aggressive, vengeful loose cannon who sees the world in black and white. Sevan is a kind, gentle contemplative who hates violence. Manasseh is a by-the-book law enforcer who uses justice as a substitute for empathy. Blackburn is a cocky jokester whose jesting nature belies extreme competence. But all of them are straight black males. Perhaps they're all exaggerations of different parts of my personality.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
I think it comes back to "you write what you know". I'm a straight white male and my main character is for all intents and purposes a straight white male - heavily influenced by my own personality (for better and for worse).

I've written other characters; men and women, elves and humans. What they so far all have in common is that I all find them appealing in some way. They're all characters that I wouldn't mind being if I was somehow mysteriously reborn in a fantasy world. I've not yet attempted to create a character in order to explore other options - perhaps I will, perhaps I won't.

I probably wouldn't write a gay pov character. Not because I have issues with homosexuality, but because I'm not confident I would be able to pull it off believably. Then again, I guess I could, if I chose not to focus too much on it and just treat them like any other person.

I guess what I'm doing is I'm writing characters that I can relate to and that I find fascinating, impressive or likable.

That makes sense. I'm writing a female lead in my current novel and there are times when I think, "Am I writing her in a believable way?" However, I've decided that she is the best character for my story. So I've decided to stay committed to my choice and just hope it turns out for the best.

Fantasy is one of those things that allows us to step into the skin of other characters and see what it feels like. I'm not an elf, but I'm pretty sure I could write one. That's one thing that is great about writing. You can explore stories of people who are nothing like you who may have lived in times different than your own.

That's one challenge I appreciate in writing myself. Immersing myself in different characters and watching them play off each other is very interesting for me.. If all my characters were like myself in some way, then I may be bored with my own writing. That's one reason I like to vary the type of characters when I can.

In hindsight, I'd say yes. The personalities of my main characters differ, but their demographic traits remain fairly constant. Reuben is an aggressive, vengeful loose cannon who sees the world in black and white. Sevan is a kind, gentle contemplative who hates violence. Manasseh is a by-the-book law enforcer who uses justice as a substitute for empathy. Blackburn is a cocky jokester whose jesting nature belies extreme competence. But all of them are straight black males. Perhaps they're all exaggerations of different parts of my personality.

It sounds like each of your characters are wildly different, so for me it doesn't feel like a default. If each of your characters was like a carbon copy of Reuben for example, it may feel like a default type of main character.

I think I found out something about myself in that even though I change the races and sexes of my character, many of them are actually quite similar in that they're hunters. So my diversity issue may result from not enough variation of character background. For my current story, having multiple hunters works, but perhaps for future stories I'm going to try characters from different backgrounds.

I'm actually finding this part of the discussion rather enlightening. :)
 
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Mindfire

Istar
You're probably think I'm choosing "extreme" examples again, but where does this concept stop? If diversity is an integral part of life, what about love? Should, then, every story include love unless you have a valid reason not to?

What about death? Who hasn't experienced the death of someone in their life? isn't that "a fundamental piece of reality?" Should, then, every story include the death of a loved one unless there is a valid reason not to.

Warning: slippery slope argument ahead.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
That's one challenge I appreciate in writing myself. Immersing myself in different characters and watching them play off each other is very interesting for me.. If all my characters were like myself in some way, then I may be bored with my own writing. That's one reason I like to vary the type of characters when I can.

That's the next level. Once I've explored my comfort zone as best I can I'll step it up a bit and widen it to try and include other, new things.
 

Ankari

Hero Breaker
Moderator
This has been an interesting development in this discussion.

I think that this discussion has stepped away from intellectual debate and has become an exchange of passions. Why wouldn't you have a diversity of race? Because your story is taking place in a limited setting. You can't argue that this parallel doesn't exist in Earth's past. If I wrote a story set in Sweden around 100 AD, it wouldn't have a very diverse cast.

Because you're not confident in accurately portraying the nuances of another race/gender/sexual orientation. Before you argue this point, please interchange the subject with something that is not so "hot topic." If I had used ninjas instead, would you have the same reaction? Would it be the "write what you know" advice?

Because you're not a worldbuilder. To introduce a race for the sake of having a race (please understand you could interchange that with gender orientation, class, etc), and not make that race feel dynamic, real, is a disservice. Does everyone really think an Arab American is the same as a Brazilian American (assuming the urban fantasy is set in America). Do you really think all Arab-Americans identify with each other? Did you know there were Muslim, Christian, Jewish, North African, Saudi (and surrounding countries), Iraqi (they have their own subculture), and Land of the Sun (which compromises Syria, Palestine, Lebonon, and Jordan)? Are you prepared to honor the difference? Are you confident that you have such a mastery of these cultures, you'd accurately represent them?

And if you said no, and didn't include them, do Arab Americans have a legitimate right to feel marginalized? Why did you pick the Chinese American character instead? Should the Arab American be glad that you used the Chinese American? That you at least represented a minority race?

Happily, I am a worldbuillder. I do have various races. I do have whites and blacks. But I haven't written a black character yet. Why? Because the continent I'm using doesn't have black people in it. There will be a time when I'll use other continents, but my world is isolated much like pre-Columbus Earth. When the age of discovery happens, bam.
 
Wow, this exploded. I can't keep up with it all, but I just want to bring up one thing:

Filigree.

One of the most popular tools for creating a fantasy world that feels fantastical is to add fantastical details. They don't have to be details that directly advance the story, because creating a vibrant world is story purpose enough. Look at Abarat--you're got the half-fish woman who wishes she could breathe underwater, the bizarre blood-sport variant of baseball, the scars on the villain's lips where his mother once sewed his mouth shut . . . You could cut it all for a tighter book, but I don't think it would be a better book.

But let's set that aside. Suppose you want a tight, carefully driven story. If I may toot my own horn, I was once told I wrote what felt like a novel in less than five thousand words. But one of the biggest complaints that story got was that there just wasn't enough detail. My latest work is about seventeen thousand words, and I use those words to mention things--that the self-proclaimed superhero wears purple tights and a domino mask, that the magical girl has curly blond hair, and yes, that the werewolf, in his human form, is mixed race. Some of those are important. Some aren't. But they make the world feel bigger and more real.*

I don't care how tight your writing is. At some point, you'll need to make your world feel like more than just actors on a painted set. One of the key elements of that is your actors--which one has an eyepatch, which one is bizarrely well-read about advanced physics, and, maybe, which one moons over men more muscular than himself. If you don't want to use that last one, fine, but don't say you're not using description at all, because seriously, how could you not?

*This post would feel incomplete if I didn't mention that there are things I can say with those details. Much of my story is about people being wrong about what they think they are, but the magical girl is biologically male, and I consistently treat her as a real girl, not as some kind of fraud or fake. She's my counterbalance, and part of the key to my message. Still, that's not something you need to do, not in the same way you need to have details.

Edit: 10 more posts while I was writing this? I have no idea how to keep up.
 
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