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Being a woman and writing dark fiction--it's complicated

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I don't know some people who don't buy books by female authors. I find it baffling. I keep recommending such books to them, and I know they'd like them if they'd give them a shot.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
A gifted writer should be indistinguishable from another gifted writer, at least concerning their ability to get into characters. If I can't get into the head of a female character I'm not a very good observer of life, and I'm not a very good artist in general. Artists should be capable of understanding their characters, how they'd react to any situation. My body will never experience childbirth, but it's never had a piece cut away by a broadsword either. Still, I could write about either.

I was going to let it go, but I'm up late and want to procrastinate for a minute. It might also be a good discussion.

But I don't agree that everybody needs to be that good. I think that might be setting the bar unrealistically high in the wrong areas. As an analogy, there's a lot of great actors who can only play a certain type of character. 99% of Harry Potter narrates the mind of just one character. You can do a lot of great writing without being a world class empath. Lots of people with a varied life have plenty of their own emotional experiences to draw from for a few characters, and those few characters might be all you need to develop a great story.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I was going to let it go, but I'm up late and want to procrastinate for a minute. It might also be a good discussion.

But I don't agree that everybody needs to be that good. I think that might be setting the bar unrealistically high in the wrong areas. As an analogy, there's a lot of great actors who can only play a certain type of character. 99% of Harry Potter narrates the mind of just one character. You can do a lot of great writing without being a world class empath. Lots of people with a varied life have plenty of their own emotional experiences to draw from for a few characters, and those few characters might be all you need to develop a great story.

I don't disagree Devor, but I think you misunderstand me. I'm not claiming everyone has to be great or that they require some special empathy skill. Rather, that good writing makes it difficult to determine gender from the work alone. Also, that I find it difficult to swallow that gender grants some predisposition for writing experiences physically or culturally reserved to a particular sex.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I don't disagree Devor, but I think you misunderstand me. I'm not claiming everyone has to be great or that they require some special empathy skill. Rather, that good writing makes it difficult to determine gender from the work alone. Also, that I find it difficult to swallow that gender grants some predisposition for writing experiences physically or culturally reserved to a particular sex.

I thought I've seen you make similar statements about good writing before, so I had thought I'd comment on it.

About gender differences, I actually do find myself disagreeing with this statement, although it might be getting to technicalities. But don't people always have a predisposition for writing about experiences they know first hand? If something is physically or culturally reserved to one gender or another - although, that list is smaller than ever right now - wouldn't you expect a predisposition to exist?

And even more so, if someone has gone through child birth, wouldn't you expect that person to have a better grounding for relating that experience? We write fantasy, so we kind of have to compensate for the lack of experience all the time, but that might lead us to forget how big of a difference experience really makes.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
Also, that I find it difficult to swallow that gender grants some predisposition for writing experiences physically or culturally reserved to a particular sex.

There's something to it though. I'm sure you've all heard the advice "write what you know" and I'm sure you agree that it makes sense in a way, but then you'll start talking about shooting fireballs and chopping peoples' heads off. None of us knows what that's like, but it's something that features in our stories and which we portray without any major issues.

I think it boils down to knowing what you don't know. None of us knows what it's like to shoot fireballs at hordes of orcs, so we spend some time thinking about it in order to try and make it believable. On the other hand, only about half of us knows what it's like to have a conversation with someone who's constantly just starring at our breasts. I can try to imagine what it might be like and then I can probably write it, but before I can do that I have to actually think about it. I need to be aware that it happens.

If I write someone casting a fireball I can describe the surge of energy running down their arm and the heat of the fire on their palms and I can make it seem real. In the same way I can write about a woman on a date with a complete jerk and what it might be like and I can make that seem real too. I just have to try and think about what it's like.

This is where gender is an advantage when writing what a character's experiences. It's not that the actual writing is difficult. It's knowing what to write; about coming up with all the things that need to be included in order to make it seem real.

We've probably all walked into a bar at one time or another. It's a fairly common event and it's not one to really think about that much. Now think about what it'd be like to walk into a bar as a member of the opposite sex. Because you're thinking about it you're coming up with all kinds of little details that might be subtly different - it's not hard. What's difficult is thinking about it in the first place.

To me, this is central to the whole gender equality issue - it's not that men and women are treated differently, it's that a lot of people don't even realize but just take it for granted that that's how it should be (but that's probably too close to real world politics to go into here).

EDIT:
The more I think about it I come to believe that a large part in portraying someone of the opposite sex is in portraying how the rest of the world sees them and treats them. Then again, that's probably applies to people of the same sex as well.
 
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T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
There's something to it though. I'm sure you've all heard the advice "write what you know" and I'm sure you agree that it makes sense in a way...
I used to be a proponent of this advice, but no longer. There are a multitude of ways you can learn or experience life. We certainly don't need expertise in a field or activity to write about it effectively. Does it lessen the learning curve? Sure, I'll grant that much. The "write what you know" advice assumes that, from experience, you'll make less technical errors and the writing will be more detailed. However, that depends entirely on the writer. Tom Clancy (RIP) never served in the military, or in any governmental service. John LeCarre (The Spy Who Came in from the Cold) was a British intelligence operative, as was Ian Fleming (James Bond creator). All three of the writers are held in high esteem with regard to their portrayal of espionage and realistic portrayals of government operations (although Fleming's Bond strayed into the fantastical).

It was rumored that Clancy was investigated as a result of his accuracy. He didn't have firsthand experience. He didn't write what he knew. He learned and wrote.
 
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Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
I used the "write what you know" as a way to link into "know what you don't know". The things you're aware you don't know are things you can research and learn about. Things you don't know you're ignorant about you will keep being ignorant about. Chances are this ignorance will show through when writing about these things.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I used the "write what you know" as a way to link into "know what you don't know".
Yes, I know. I was just trying to elaborate with example.

The things you're aware you don't know are things you can research and learn about. Things you don't know you're ignorant about you will keep being ignorant about. Chances are this ignorance will show through when writing about these things.
If that is true, your research in the subject matter is lacking. If it's in your story, you should have the knowledge.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
Yes, I know. I was just trying to elaborate with example.
Fair enough.


If that is true, your research in the subject matter is lacking. If it's in your story, you should have the knowledge.
Definitely. The issue is with things you're unaware you don't know enough about.
I guess this can be tied back to the original topic. Some readers apparently have this notion that women can't pull off writing dark fiction as well as a man could. It's in line with how they've been brought up and matches their image of what women are. They just assume that their preconceived notions they've lived with all their lives are correct and don't think to question them at all.

Logically, these people would probably realize they're wrong if they stop to think about it. The issue is many of them don't.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
Can you give an example of this?

Myself when I joined here.

I was quite convinced I was a gifted, talented and awesome writer. I just needed to sit down and actually get my story written and everyone would love it. I posted some things here on the Showcase forum, expecting people to praise me for how good it was. That didn't happen. Instead I ended up with a list of advice relating to things I'd barely even heard of (passive voice, active prose, tension, etc.).
The more I started digging into it the more I discovered I had left to learn.

If I hadn't come across this site I might have just blundered on blindly and eventually self-published a glorious contribution to the bad reputation of self-published fantasy.

I might have stumbled on some other site, but I might not. The issue is I thought I was awesome and I never really stopped to question it until someone else questioned it for me.

I don't know if you've ever tried learning a second language? It's similar. At first you get to a point where you're fairly confident with it and then all of a sudden you get past that point and you realize how insanely much you have left to learn.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
Myself when I joined here.

I was quite convinced I was a gifted, talented and awesome writer. I just needed to sit down and actually get my story written and everyone would love it. I posted some things here on the Showcase forum, expecting people to praise me for how good it was. That didn't happen. Instead I ended up with a list of advice relating to things I'd barely even heard of (passive voice, active prose, tension, etc.).
The more I started digging into it the more I discovered I had left to learn.

If I hadn't come across this site I might have just blundered on blindly and eventually self-published a glorious contribution to the bad reputation of self-published fantasy.

I might have stumbled on some other site, but I might not. The issue is I thought I was awesome and I never really stopped to question it until someone else questioned it for me.

I don't know if you've ever tried learning a second language? It's similar. At first you get to a point where you're fairly confident with it and then all of a sudden you get past that point and you realize how insanely much you have left to learn.

Okay, now I understand you and it seems we're talking about different things.

What I'm referring to is a specific item, procedure, or event you include in a story, like how to operate a particular weapon, or how to perform a Caesarean section. If its in your story, you should have the knowledge to write about it intelligently & accurately.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
Okay, now I understand you and it seems we're talking about different things.

What I'm referring to is a specific item, procedure, or event you include in a story, like how to operate a particular weapon, or how to perform a Caesarean section. If its in your story, you should have the knowledge to write about it intelligently & accurately.

Ah, that would explain it. ;)

I agree fully.

One of my main concerns when writing is missing out on this. I worry that I'll take something for granted and just include it out of habit without thinking.

A practical example would be the knight in full armor. There's this popular misconception that the armor of a mounted knight is so heavy that they can't walk on foot or get up on their own if they fall over. I bought into this for a long time without realizing it's incorrect.
I like to think I've got a clue on things, but there may very well be other things like the armored knight that I take for granted but which are incorrect.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
A practical example would be the knight in full armor. There's this popular misconception that the armor of a mounted knight is so heavy that they can't walk on foot or get up on their own if they fall over. I bought into this for a long time without realizing it's incorrect. I like to think I've got a clue on things, but there may very well be other things like the armored knight that I take for granted but which are incorrect.

Okay then, if you're aiming for historical accuracy, what lesson does that experience teach? It should teach us not to assume knowledge & make a practice of confirming our beliefs through research.

Therefore, if I'm writing a scene where a knight is pulled from his saddle and can't get to his feet, I need to look into several aspects of the scene to ensure accuracy. What is the name of the hooked weapon use to pull the knight to the ground? What type of soldiers commonly used that weapon? What tactics would they employ? How would they try to dispatch a felled knight? What would they be dressed like? How heavy would the knights armor be realistically, and how would that impede movement, if at all? What are the weaknesses in a suit of armor that could be exploited? How many hands tall is the average Destrier (to gauge potential damage of the fall)? These are the types of questions I'd need answers to before writing the scene.

So I stand by my earlier comment of "If it's in your story you should have the knowledge", or at least go get it.

You know what they say about assumptions....
 
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"Write what you know" means "Write about characterizations and emotional experiences you're familiar with," not "write about subjects you've personally experienced." Anyone can do the research to figure out what fighting on horseback in armor was like, or how to perform open-heart surgery, or how to lose a tail, or how to disarm a bomb.

But no amount of research can tell you what it feels like to fall in love, or to fall out of love, for example.
 
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