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Do you have to be a fantasy reader to be a fantasy writer?

Chilari

Staff
Moderator
If you're relying on outside influences, instead of a creative core, for page after page after page of writing, for scene after scene and character after character, then you're going to fail.

I think this is where I disagree with you. I don't see outside influences and creative core as being completely separate things. I believe you need outside influences to develop creative core. How can you be creative without examples to inspire you to follow the same path, without stories to ignite your imagination? I don't know about you, but what inspired me to write in the first place was reading. I read these amazing stories, and I wanted to do the same thing. How could anyone become an author without hearing or reading stories that inspire them to write?

This reminds me of that TV show on Channel 4 in Britain a few years ago - Garth Meranghi's Dark Place. A spoof 1970s paranormal hospital show, with interviews with the "actors" and "writer" - Garth Meranghi - in the modern day as if the series was being revived. The character of the writer says in one of these "interviews" that he must be the only author that has written more books than he has read. And you just know that explains why the supposed "original" series is so embarrassingly awful.

You can have outside influences without including those influences in what you write. You say you could write a western form the point of view of a senile granny, without needing to understand the western genre. I'm not sure I agree. I'm sure you could write an interesting story, character arc and so on, but just throwing in a saloon and poker and cowboys spitting tobacco won't make it a good western. It might have the trappings of a western, and a good story at it's core, but lack of understanding of the genre could make the western parts look tacky to fans of westerns, and taint the solid core of the story as a result. I think it's possible for a reader who is a fan of a genre to tell when the author knows what they're talking about and when they're just playing with a genre. And I think that without a solid understanding of the genre, an author can never truly write something in that genre which is both a good story, and a competent representative of the genre.

Knowing a lot about the genre doesn't mean you are restricted by it though. The better your understanding of a genre, the more competently you can bend it to your will, stretch the boundaries without breaking them, and work within those stretched boundaries in a believable manner while still telling a good story.

Let me put it this way: when there's a party requiring balloons, the first balloons I blow tend to be a bit smaller. I don't know the tensile strength of this particular pack of balloons yet, and I don't want them to pop. As I gain more confidence blowing up the balloons, they get bigger. A few might pop right in my face - and then I know how big they can go. So the last few balloons are big, but not so big they'll pop in my face before I've tied the knot. That's how I see it. Without testing some balloons - and without reading widely in a genre - I don't know what the boundaries are. I might go too far, or I might unwittingly be unambitious and not test any boundaries at all. Knowing the limits allows me to make the biggest balloons I can without them exploding in my face - or write the best story I can without going so far past the boundaries of the genre that I go into the ridiculous.
 
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Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I don't know about you, but what inspired me to write in the first place was reading. I read these amazing stories, and I wanted to do the same thing. How could anyone become an author without hearing or reading stories that inspire them to write?

I don't want to write because I've read stories that inspired me. I want to write because I've been told by others that the stories I've written have inspired them.


You can have outside influences without including those influences in what you write.

What do you think separates people who draw on outside influences, and don't realize it, from those who create their own ideas?
 

solas

Scribe
Jackarandajam,
R. A. Salvadore has a row of books that makes my mouth water every time i pass them in the bookstore, and I've heard wonderful things about him, but i refuse to crack open the first book just yet. My world is still so young and fresh and evolutionary in my mind, i don't want to corrupt its originality with other (albeit awesome and well constructed) ideas. I've read lots of fiction, but very little fantasy fiction, and will not until my I've explored my world so thoroughly that ill be able to take an idea in my hands and turn it over, before carefully placing wherever i see fit. I don't want images and "easy answers" to take the place of my originality.
I could not agree with you more on this quote. Not that I disagree with others...I see their point but I have done substantial research on the setting, some characters (mythology plays a big part) have numerous resources BUT this does not mean I am a good fantasy writer...or good writer period. I thought about responding to one reply who said something like if you do not read fantasy, you shouldn't be writing it (my apologies to the member if I did not get this right!) and I went to reply this is like saying if a male/female designer doesn't wear the clothes they design then they should not be designing...poor analogy!!! But it boils down to imagination and creativity, which I believe I have, but need to hone on writing skills and want to delete some slow pacing and expand the story more. I am an Amazon addict...I put in the search bar "best fantasy books"...now I am aware of George R.R. Martin and some others but the first one to show up is The Book of Deacon which I got for free on my PC kindle. It is a bit slow but the the descriptions are so rich....and perhaps a tad overdone? Snow, ice, injury, snow, ice injury. BUT I wonder if I need to expand on my descriptions...actually I do and will be working on this as I edit the second draft.
 

solas

Scribe
Chilari,
I don't see outside influences and creative core as being completely separate things. I believe you need outside influences to develop creative core.
Brilliant point!!
 
I don't want to write because I've read stories that inspired me. I want to write because I've been told by others that the stories I've written have inspired them.

That doesn't explain why you've ever taken up writing. Because I'm sure like most people here you've grown as a writer over the years. The work you claim inspired others is most likely of much higher quality than the first stories you put to paper. Why did you ever decide to take up writing as a hobby if what inspires you is the reaction to your writing now? I'm not saying positive feedback can't be inspiring - it most certainly is! But it's not why people take up writing as a hobby.

(I just read a few posts here and there in the debate so excuse me if my question is irrelevant or answered elsewhere. I just read Devor's post and that passage strikes me as odd.
 

solas

Scribe
Wordwalker,
If you weren't a fantasy reader, why would you WANT to be a fantasy writer?
I LIKE to write and initially started a memoir but it became too painful so I ditched it and decided to write something a bit lighter and fantasy struck me....I consider myself to be very creative, writing, mixed media artist, jewelry designer/creator and if you saw my living-room, you would understand why I am interested in fantasy and magic (tastefully done I must add).
 

solas

Scribe
Thanks to all who have replied. I apologize if I have not thanked every one on each thread...I didn't realize the gratitude option until the other day and I do not visit here everyday so I think I will stop posting threads for a while for that reason. I deactivated my FB account...too distracting. This is a great group and I am happy to be here!
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
That doesn't explain why you've ever taken up writing. Because I'm sure like most people here you've grown as a writer over the years. The work you claim inspired others is most likely of much higher quality than the first stories you put to paper. Why did you ever decide to take up writing as a hobby if what inspires you is the reaction to your writing now? I'm not saying positive feedback can't be inspiring - it most certainly is! But it's not why people take up writing as a hobby.

I'm going to try to answer that without giving the wrong impression, writing a lengthy history, or wanting to make this about me. Certainly I've read good books that I enjoy. But I started writing to contribute to communities I was part of.
 

solas

Scribe
That doesn't explain why you've ever taken up writing. Because I'm sure like most people here you've grown as a writer over the years. The work you claim inspired others is most likely of much higher quality than the first stories you put to paper. Why did you ever decide to take up writing as a hobby if what inspires you is the reaction to your writing now? I'm not saying positive feedback can't be inspiring - it most certainly is! But it's not why people take up writing as a hobby.
Perhaps I out of the loop here but I believe people take up writing (this can apply to anything that appeals to someone, because they want to. Jeez I wanted to start a thread on cliches but as I mentioned before, I am not here too much. I just did an autocrit review of a chapter and they picked up pale as a ghost but it is in dialogue..do I still have to get rid of it?
 
What do you think separates people who draw on outside influences, and don't realize it, from those who create their own ideas?

Can you please give an example of one of these authors who doesn't seem to recognize outside influences? Paolini seems to know what he's basing his stories off of--it's just how he wants to write. Same for Weis and Hickman.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
This is not a new subject of debate for me. I have the same debate, with the same person once or twice every year. Perhaps some explanation will illustrate why I'm so opinionated on the topic.

First & foremost, let me say the following comments apply to no one in this thread....

The individual I have this debate with is a member of my extended fantasy who claims they want to be a writer and had been world building for roughly a decade...maybe 5 or 6 chapters completed in that time, none of which I've ever seen.

This person doesn't read. With the exception of Robert Jordan's work, they refuse to read any fiction because of a staunch belief that any outside influences will damage their sense of originality. Pointing out similarities in their ideas from my own reading yields nothing but more resistance. I get the "I don't want to hear about those stories". Further, this person even refuses to read books on the craft of writing. They believe that researching and practicing differing techniques will also damage some original sense of style, which they seem to think is innately present within a writer.

Over the years, I've come to the determination this is nothing more than an excuse (or perhaps fear) to avoid the actual work of writing...the years of practice necessary to write well, in whatever style the writer has chosen.

Considering this, I suppose it's natural for me to instantly be critical of an approach to writing that claims efficacy without reading. Granted, the case I illustrated above may be extreme. Still, I often get suspicious when I hear worlds being developed for years and years while the person avoids outside influences to protect their vision. I have a hard time accepting that as truth. To be clear, I'm not talking about taking time to develop rich worlds, or even world builders disease. Rather, I'm referring to what I view as nothing more than avoidance of the work required to write, just another excuse.

I hope that explains my position more, and why I think in this manner.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I hope that explains my position more, and why I think in this manner.

Yeah, I can understand that. What you're describing isn't a healthy attitude, and it certainly isn't one I meant to appear to espouse. If there's an attitude I mean to respond to, it's those who seem to have given up on creativity and seem to think they can succeed by telling the same old stories with better execution.

I understand that reading is a sacred cow, and for good reason. Although I've meant what I said about the risks of reading having an undue influence on someone who hasn't put their creative abilities into focus, the larger point about honing your creativity could probably have been better made without coming across as an attack on reading.

Anything - planning, research, worldbuilding, even reading, even Mythic Scribes - can serve as someone's red herring and excuse for not developing all of their writing skills, from creativity to narrative voice to character development. But none of those should be ignored as tools and skills for developing your writing. Or keep you from writing.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
If there's an attitude I mean to respond to, it's those who seem to have given up on creativity and seem to think they can succeed by telling the same old stories with better execution. I understand that reading is a sacred cow, and for good reason. Although I've meant what I said about the risks of reading having an undue influence on someone who hasn't put their creative abilities into focus...
With that, I can wholeheartedly agree.
 
C

Chessie

Guest
My two cents: reading, in any genre, is essential to being a good writer. When I read the work of others, not only do I become inspired to finish my own, but I am able to pick up hints of style that help me figure some things out. Other writers are my teachers. If I didn't read, then it would be like trying to learn a new skill on my own. That's setting myself up for failure.

I had to train to become a yoga teacher. I learned how to adjust students, etc by observing my teachers. I took what they taught me and adjusted it to my own style. But years of practice and observing other teachers helped me learn valuable information that now helps me pass that on to my students.

I see writing in that same way. Its a skill that is learned just like any other. We can teach ourselves a bit about playing baseball, practicing yoga, painting, whatever BUT to be successful at it and charge money for our books, its essential that we read and learn about the craft. Otherwise we are denying ourselves the process of deepening our writing skill and reaching our highest potential.
 
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ValkyrieMist

Acolyte
I'm guilty of this, and I've also wondered whether it's a good or bad thing. I always mean to read more fantasy, but other books--non fiction stuff about mythology, folklore, history, sagas, fairy tales etc.--keep piling on top of them and get read first.

Thanks for asking this question; this thread is an interesting read, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who's had pangs of guilt over this.
 
The individual I have this debate with is a member of my extended fantasy who claims they want to be a writer and had been world building for roughly a decade...maybe 5 or 6 chapters completed in that time, none of which I've ever seen.

This person doesn't read. With the exception of Robert Jordan's work, they refuse to read any fiction because of a staunch belief that any outside influences will damage their sense of originality. Pointing out similarities in their ideas from my own reading yields nothing but more resistance. I get the "I don't want to hear about those stories". Further, this person even refuses to read books on the craft of writing. They believe that researching and practicing differing techniques will also damage some original sense of style, which they seem to think is innately present within a writer.

I know a writer who is actually very good - has had heaps of short stories published and even won a very prestigious award for short stories. However, for him, the holy grail is getting a novel published and after 30 years of trying he's still nowhere near it.

The weird thing about him though, is that he refuses to redraft. He seems to believe that whatever pours out of his muse is somehow perfect and must not be disturbed.

Having read all of his stuff, it's clear to me that it is possible to be both a brilliant short story writer and a clueless novelist.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Having slept on it a bit last night, I wanted to say one more thing about creativity, a point I was getting at but never quite demonstrated.

In any situation, there's a "trigger" which is controlling the ideas that are popping into your head. That same trigger is working in every other author, and with your readers, to give people similar ideas based on the things you've read, the experiences you've had, and so on.

If you want to be creative, and surprise your readers, you want to do two things:

- Change the trigger that's giving you ideas so that you can get ideas that are different from the ideas other authors are getting.

- Set up false triggers to confuse your readers.

Going back to the example I gave earlier:


The element of a western I want to keep is the standoff at high noon, out in front of the saloon. It's a very tense moment, so let me start by wanting to turn that tension on its head.

In a high-noon shootoff I immediately identified the tension, and the two main POV characters, as the trigger giving me ideas. At this point I was still thinking about old western movies and back to the future and Rango, and I immediately thought "That's no good, I need a new trigger."


Comedy's probably been done, so let's pick a different POV character as the protagonist, so we can experience the moment as a reader with a different feeling and a different kind of tension. Let's go with the perspective of someone who's excited.

The moment I did that, I was getting ideas from everywhere. Cop shows, cartoons, books, friendships I've had, my kids, literally everywhere I've ever seen someone get excited. All of a sudden I was in total control of which ideas I was receiving and using in approaching the situation.

If I wanted, having conceived the story, I could still have gone back into the heads of the duelers and it would have felt very different and "creative" from any other shootout you've seen, because I conceived it from wholly different triggers.

Now let all that sink in for a moment, as that's the big take away. Change the trigger, change the ideas you get. Then use the old triggers to trick the reader.

But I will make a brief point about reading, and why it's relevant to this situation. Because I haven't read or watched a lot of westerns, I had no problem recognizing that the ideas I was receiving were stale and why they were being triggered by the common theme. It was easy for me to see what I needed to change.

It's a lot harder for me to be creative when I'm telling a story about wizards, for instance, because I have no idea where the ideas I'm receiving are coming from. The idea of the wizard triggers ideas from so many places that I have trouble identifying the triggers, or recognizing whether changing something is actually giving me brand new ideas. I can, usually, but only because of experience and effort - the task itself is much harder.

Had I read a lot of fantasy early on, I don't think I would have been able to teach myself how to be creative. The challenge of seeing that path of ideas and where they're coming from is just so much easier when you know you're getting those ideas from Tolkein and D&D and the few other things you've seen.

That's why I try to stress focusing on creativity early on. The other skills and benefits from reading can be picked up later.


((edit))

In a shout-out to Chilari and others who are arguing about the concept of creativity, let's specifically call this concept ideation.
 
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I still don't feel like I can relate to what you're talking about. Like, if you don't want to write Tolkien wizards, write anime wizards, or Discworld wizards, or wizards from the Magister trilogy. They're all different kinds of wizards, and they all have different impacts on the story. (It sounds like you're trying to not write wizards from any of those stories, which seems kind of pointless to me--if you have something new to say about them, say it, and add to the conversation.)
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
(It sounds like you're trying to not write wizards from any of those stories, which seems kind of pointless to me--if you have something new to say about them, say it, and add to the conversation.)

"Wizards" is just a simple example. Usually you've got like ten elements going into a scene, and you've got to figure out how they work together. But the idea of the trigger is still the same. You're likely to be seeing the same set of outcomes everyone else is because you're seeing the same triggers, and those triggers are reminding you of a similar set of source experiences. Find a new trigger, and you'll find a different set of ideas to create that outcome.

((edit))

Reading will give you more source experiences, which is great, but that can make it harder to learn how to manipulate the triggers. You might be getting more ideas than everyone else, but they're still the same kind of ideas everyone else is getting because the triggers are still the same.
 
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