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Do you have to be a fantasy reader to be a fantasy writer?

I chose which ideas came to me by taking control of the triggers I was focused on. That's control.

You chose your starting point, not what happened next. Creativity is not your starting point, it's what happens next. As such you have no real control over the creative process.

I have. Several times. Go read them and explain why it isn't true, instead of asking to see it again.

I have offered evidence contradicting your points (in the long post I wrote last night and the shorter one I did this morning) and you have not refuted my claims. Ergo, it's your move - not mine.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
You chose your starting point, not what happened next. Creativity is not your starting point, it's what happens next. As such you have no real control over the creative process.

I don't see a point in arguing about the taxonomic categorization of creativity. I've been abundantly clear about what I'm talking about. You can use the first group of ideas that come to mind, or you can find ways to unlock a wider variety of ideas. Nor is this about me being super-awesome-creative and everyone else being a stale, uninspired bumb. I'm sure that many other people in this conversation are doing similar things on a subconscious level. I'm only trying to isolate it as a separate skill and bring it to the surface.


I have offered evidence contradicting your points (in the long post I wrote last night and the shorter one I did this morning) and you have not refuted my claims. Ergo, it's your move - not mine.

You said:

So basically you're stating that because one source inspires me, my imagination will now be influenced by that source only? I agree to a point. I remember - back when I was just starting as a worldbuilder - reading a book or watching a movie and then building my own world and later discovering it was very similar to the one in that inspired me. But that only happened when I started a new project and as soon as something else inspired me I'd start making some changes here and there. Most projects take a while and so there are multiple things that inspire me. I think reading that book is very valuable to me, especially in the long run. It's like carrying a satchel filled with ideas and concepts from all the stories you've ever read. You're influenced by all of them and that means you're influenced by a mishmash of ideas and concepts. Creativity is drawing from those experiences and using those experiences to make something new.

When you realized your idea set was too small, you went and searched for new ideas from other books. I would have immediately thought, "This is unacceptable, let me create new ideas to work with right here, right now."

What point does that prove?
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
Devor: I don't see how the version you came up still isn't a "What if...?" scenario.

You could say "Why does the wizard barge in?" "Well because they're conspirators."

How is that different than "What if the wizard barges in?" "What if they're conspirators? What if they're lovers? etc. etc."

It kind of seems like you're dancing around not using "What if...?"

I also don't see how my version feels like it "doesn't go anywhere." I've got a clear idea of characters, motivation, a potential plot, complications, all from just "What iffing?" over and over again. If this is one of those arguments about how one creative process is better than the other or more effective, then I guess I'm going to have to drop the "agree to disagree" card.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
What if the wizard barges into the troll cave? What if he's wearing heavy iron armor? What if he doesn't care if anyone hears him? What if he has a hearing problem because of his tooth ache? What if he's an ogre wizard and the troll is a dentist? What if the troll dentist hasn't done work in years? What if he's agreed to pull the ogre wizard's tooth out if he brings him a dragon egg? What if the dragon egg is hatching and the wizard much think quickly to get it to the troll? What if the troll cave is full of teeth golems?

I want to dissect this a little more, and I hope Phil won't take offense by the effort.

The section in red represents where it looks like barge got you. The bold line in the middle seems to be the product of an effort, conscious or otherwise, to find new triggers, sort of a wild take. The section in green is the product of the new triggers.

Now, to me, the section in red represents elements that are transferable to another version of the story. The wizard could wear iron armor while diving or sneaking, and that might make things more interesting. You've introduced an element of sound, whether the wizard is heard, that might be relevant.

That transferability is part of the reason I chose crawl and dive and barge. I was looking for ideas for drama.

You've picked on Ogre Wizard and Troll Dentist. That's fine, if that's a story you want to tell. But it represents a mix of triggers that's pretty wild and a little dominating. Something like teeth golems? The readers will probably go, "Of course," and that might be amusing.

But at this point, think about how crawls and barges and dives might affect your story. Crawls? Wounded? Maybe the wizard's in a lot of pain from his toothache. Barges? Maybe he's pissed at the troll for botching the tooth surgery. Surgery? Maybe the Ogre now has a magical tooth. Dives? Maybe the Ogre Wizard dives at the troll dentist and strangles him.

You don't have to use those, of course, but with those extra ideas in mind, and by searching out even more drama-words, you would have more ideas for writing the scene than you might have otherwise.
 
I don't see a point in arguing about the taxonomic categorization of creativity. I've been abundantly clear about what I'm talking about.

It is important to the point I'm making. You can't discard my arguments because you've been abundantly clear.

When you realized your idea set was too small, you went and searched for new ideas from other books. I would have immediately thought, "This is unacceptable, let me create new ideas to work with right here, right now."

What point does that prove?

Nothing at all. I explained all the ideas you can ever come up with find their source elsewhere, in a book you've read, a movie you've seen or an experience you've lived. So in my opinion it is impossible for you to create new ideas without those external sources influencing you. And limiting those sources by not using other work as inspiration is like shooting yourself in the foot. Why not use other works as an influence or as a trigger (as you'd call it). Because in the end, you'll always be influenced by something, be it someone's work, history or your own life. Your ideas aren't new (nothing is original) and they aren't your own (their a mix of external concepts). I'd like to add that I don't use the ideas from another book unabridged, I use them as you might use a trigger.

The problem seems to be which triggers you accept and which you don't. I accept any and all triggers. Other people's fiction, my own, history, my life, anything. You seem to think other people's fiction doesn't work as a trigger... Why exclude that source but not the others?

Also, I agree with Philip. Your concept of triggers seems to be a regular brainstorm. Similar results can be obtained using a what if formula or by tossing a few ideas into a hat. Like the Codex Aelera (or whatever it's called). The author used Lost Roman Legion (borrowed from history) and Pokémon (borrowed from a TV show/fiction) as the start of his story. He obviously used external inspiration and twisted it into his own idea. His success proves my point.

[EDIT: I'd just like to add that despite my opinionated posts I do quite enjoy the debate and I respect everyone's opinion. I just thought I'd make that clear as I have a tendency to hammer a point home.]
 
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Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I don't see how the version you came up still isn't a "What if...?" scenario.

What if doesn't take the idea very far. Why would assumes, mentally, that you're going with the idea and forces you to develop a motivation for why it might occur. What if dips your toes in the water. Why would dives in.


I also don't see how my version feels like it "doesn't go anywhere."

I didn't really mean much by that statement, and you ninjaed my further examination.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
So in my opinion it is impossible for you to create new ideas without those external sources influencing you.

. . .

Your ideas aren't new (nothing is original) and they aren't your own (their a mix of external concepts).

"New" and "original" aren't the point. And while the ideas aren't new, if you control the trigger, then you control the shape of the big group of ideas you're picking from. You want to explain why one author has a bigger big group of ideas than the other author. I'm trying to talk about why one author has a wholly different big group of ideas than everyone else.

That is, that author picked wholly different triggers.

It's like the tap in the bar. Everyone is filling their glass with beer. Some people are drinking Bud Light, which is little better than water (for the purpose of this example). Some people are drinking deep, rich Guinness. A very few people go to a bar, don't like Bud Light, can't afford Guinness, so they bring their own vodka and make a Bud Light Beer Breezer.
 
That is, that author picked wholly different triggers.

First of all, the triggers you pick are influenced by your pool of ideas. Narrowing your pool down by excluding fantasy fiction will not lead to better results. It just means you'll have less triggers to work with. Instead of using a fantasy trigger you'll use a thriller trigger or a trigger from whatever else you're reading/watching/...

Second of all, as each author is an individual with unique experiences, he or she is going to have a different pool of ideas. But there are other people which will have the same (or a similar) idea in their unique pool. This renders your point moot. Every author has a wholly different set of triggers/ideas but none of those ideas is unique (the same trigger/idea can be found in different pools).

Third of all, the starting point doesn't matter, the end result does. It is perfectly possible to start with another author's idea and turn it into something entirely different. It doesn't matter if you pick "barges" or "ogre" as your trigger. Both offer a good starting point for your creative process.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
As a participant and judge in several challenges here on the site, I've seen a lot of great stories created from simple triggers like from the Iron Pen challenges. It basically encourages you to take several elements and make them important to your story. Something like:

1. A stone face
2. A flute of bone
3. A tangled forest etc.

For me, it's interesting to see how several different writers interpret these different triggers. Some may go the literal route and others may try to spin it a bit. I think for the purposes of these challenges, almost everyone involved is approaching this process in different ways. I'm curious to ask those who have participated how they handled these triggers.

That said, I think what Abbas is saying is true for me. I think the starting point is just a starting point. It may evolve through edits and such. I may get new ideas that I want to put in there for whatever reason. I may take the elements I thought were good and cut them because they don't work for that particular story. The end result is the most important part. Perhaps following different kinds of methods brings you to different kinds of points.

I'm not totally disagreeing with what Devor is saying, as I think his suggestions are good ways to suss out ideas, I just have a hard time finding it different than a typical "What if...?" session. Maybe there are slight differences, but I'm not sure they are going to get drastically different results.
 

solas

Scribe
Hmmm....I wonder if there is over-analyzation of creativity here? I am getting lost! A couple of weeks ago as I was revising my novel, a brilliant (well to me it is brilliant) idea came up for a new chapter during the protagonist's journey to the climax chapter. Instead of coming across the usual monsters and beasts (I highly recommend Dragons and Fantasy Beasts by Finlay Cowen) I had the protagonist clash with a group of very different people (Rogues) from another part of the realm that has only been mentioned. I cannot tell you what triggered this but it I feel it is one of the best chapters in the book. Rather than ask "Do you have to be a fantasy reader to be a fantasy writer?" I think the more suitable question should be "Do you need an imagination to be a fantasy writer? LOL!:D
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
First of all, the triggers you pick are influenced by your pool of ideas. Narrowing your pool down by excluding fantasy fiction will not lead to better results. It just means you'll have less triggers to work with. Instead of using a fantasy trigger you'll use a thriller trigger or a trigger from whatever else you're reading/watching/...

Go look, long and hard, at all my posts and tell me where I've encouraged anyone to "narrow" their pool or "exclude" fantasy. What I've said, I'll say again and again and again until someone explains why it isn't true.

If you wait to learn creativity to focus instead on reading it will become harder to learn creativity later on. That's true because you will start off with Guinness, be satisfied with Guinness, and never think about making a Beer Breezer.


Second of all, as each author is an individual with unique experiences, he or she is going to have a different pool of ideas. But there are other people which will have the same (or a similar) idea in their unique pool. This renders your point moot. Every author has a wholly different set of triggers/ideas but none of those ideas is unique (the same trigger/idea can be found in different pools).

Now break from thinking about the writers and think about readers. What pool of ideas are they working with? The ones that would occur to them from the triggers you give them.

This isn't about finding a starting point for a story. This is about finding a way to be original page after page after page. You're on chapter 22 of 30 and need to figure out what happens. You need to reach for triggers outside your book to figure it out, and then figure out how the ideas from those new triggers can fit with what you have. If you don't, if you rely on the triggers seeded to you in your book, you won't surprise your reader. They've got those triggers, too.


Third of all, the starting point doesn't matter, the end result does. It is perfectly possible to start with another author's idea and turn it into something entirely different. It doesn't matter if you pick "barges" or "ogre" as your trigger. Both offer a good starting point for your creative process.

Sure. But again, you're on chapter 22. You've gone with troll or ogre or whatever it is a long time ago. Now you need words like barge or crawl or dives. That's the kind of new trigger that will still work for you at chapter 22. Ogre won't. You're going to have an Ogre come out of nowhere? That kind of wild take might work for some situations. I won't fault that. But it's not going to get you through a scene when the characters were already set up long ago.
 
Go look, long and hard, at all my posts and tell me where I've encouraged anyone to "narrow" their pool or "exclude" fantasy. What I've said, I'll say again and again and again until someone explains why it isn't true.

If you wait to learn creativity to focus instead on reading it will become harder to learn creativity later on. That's true because you will start off with Guinness, be satisfied with Guinness, and never think about making a Beer Breezer.

And I say that reading is just as important as it expands the pool of triggers you work with. I say that reading is a way to learn creativity as creativity is combining ideas into a (semi)-new idea. If you've got a bigger pool of ideas to work with, it's easier to be creative. I say it's important the two go hand in hand. I say those with a bigger pool of ideas, as the result of reading, have an easier time learning to be creative. That's why I think you exclude. Because you do not think a bigger pool makes creativity and learning to be creative easier.

If you start of drinking the cocktails on the bar's list you'll get a deeper understanding of flavors and of mixing drinks and it'll be easier to combine flavors into a new cocktail as you'll have tasted them before. You'll know more flavors and thus you'll have more flavors to work with, to combine.

Now break from thinking about the writers and think about readers. What pool of ideas are they working with? The ones that would occur to them from the triggers you give them.

This isn't about finding a starting point for a story. This is about finding a way to be original page after page after page. You're on chapter 22 of 30 and need to figure out what happens. You need to reach for triggers outside your book to figure it out, and then figure out how the ideas from those new triggers can fit with what you have. If you don't, if you rely on the triggers seeded to you in your book, you won't surprise your reader. They've got those triggers, too.

How is using another author's work and the concepts and plots they use as inspiration predictable to a reader reading my book? The whole point of my argument is that using external inspiration is very helpful! You're describing exactly what I've been advocating all along. Taking a concept from somewhere and then working with that. Twisting it, changing it, turning it around and then making it fit. I don't understand how you think this illustrates your point.

Sure. But again, you're on chapter 22. You've gone with troll or ogre or whatever it is a long time ago. Now you need words like barge or crawl or dives. That's the kind of new trigger that will still work for you at chapter 22. Ogre won't. You're going to have an Ogre come out of nowhere? That kind of wild take might work for some situations. I won't fault that. But it's not going to get you through a scene when the characters were already set up long ago.

Who says I'm limited to ogre? I honestly don't understand your arguments anymore. Why wouldn't I be able to use a new trigger when I need a new one even if I'm well-read in the Fantasy genre and just starting out as an author. What's stopping me from doing that?
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
How about if you're on Chapter 22 and an ogre just appears? Does it have to dive or charge or swim or any of that? Maybe it just shows up and the character has to figure out what to do. That's usually my writing process. A character is in a situation and has to figure out how to handle it. If there's a narrow passage ahead, then maybe he crawls. If there's a giant bridge and no escape, maybe he jumps off it. If there's a tooth golem crushing his windpipe, maybe he sprays it with a Cavity spell? I try to think from character choices most of the time. If the character does this, what happens? If the character does the opposite, what happens?

I usually try to both meet and subvert reader expectations if possible. I want to do something that the reader will say, "Oh, this is something I like as I've seen it before." For example, a raging minotaur. Then I want to subvert the reader expectations on what the raging minotaur is going to do. Maybe he kills some people. That meets reader expectations. But what if he is raging because the IRS says he owes 5,000 dollars in back taxes? Well, I don't think most people expect that. It takes my story in a different direction because I decided to make a plot and character choice.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I think for the purposes of these challenges, almost everyone involved is approaching this process in different ways. I'm curious to ask those who have participated how they handled these triggers.

I would like to see that, too.


I'm not totally disagreeing with what Devor is saying, as I think his suggestions are good ways to suss out ideas, I just have a hard time finding it different than a typical "What if...?" session. Maybe there are slight differences, but I'm not sure they are going to get drastically different results.

Some things, like me going through a list of drama words, are tricks that I figured out and work for me, and I am happy to find an opportunity to share them, and don't mean to "impose" them as the way forward. They represent me having pushed through and hack creativity, because I recognized that some ideas weren't good enough.

But they also represent universal insight into the creative process, in that you brain isn't doing much different, subconsciously, in the back. It's seeing triggers, producing ideas. Change the triggers, produce different ideas. How you change them, I'm sure everyone has different ways, and that most of them work to some degree or another.

Taking What if specifically, I have gone beyond my own insights and actually done some research on studying. Participants in a study who were told to think "What if" got weaker answers. The answers were shallow, they had not taken the concept as far as they could have. Just like those who were told to be "original."

I typed a list of quotes earlier which reflect statements that I've written down from that research. Some of them are paraphrased a bit to work for me. I'm sorry, I don't have original citations, and wouldn't list them if I did. I'm not out to prove you wrong. If you feel that "What if" gets you a deep analysis, then that works for you. But I do urge everyone to seriously consider if it does.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
How about if you're on Chapter 22 and an ogre just appears? Does it have to dive or charge or swim or any of that? Maybe it just shows up and the character has to figure out what to do. That's usually my writing process. A character is in a situation and has to figure out how to handle it. If there's a narrow passage ahead, then maybe he crawls. If there's a giant bridge and no escape, maybe he jumps off it. If there's a tooth golem crushing his windpipe, maybe he sprays it with a Cavity spell? I try to think from character choices most of the time. If the character does this, what happens? If the character does the opposite, what happens?

Again, I'm not trying to judge anyone's stories here. It's only that "Ogre" gets pretty specific and slipping it in won't work most of the time. If you write in a way that it does, go ahead. But triggers that are more subtle work in situations that are more specific.

Also, by thinking crawls or dives, I don't actually need a character to do either of those things in a literal way for it to be useful. If crawls gets me wounded or sneaky, or barge gets me co-conspirators, I can keep those ideas and drop the literal trigger. Maybe the Ogre doesn't crawl, or barge in, but maybe he's pissed and raging because he's hurt. That kind of thing. The words are packed with drama, so they inspire dramatic ideas.


I usually try to both meet and subvert reader expectations if possible. I want to do something that the reader will say, "Oh, this is something I like as I've seen it before." For example, a raging minotaur. Then I want to subvert the reader expectations on what the raging minotaur is going to do. Maybe he kills some people. That meets reader expectations. But what if he is raging because the IRS says he owes 5,000 dollars in back taxes? Well, I don't think most people expect that. It takes my story in a different direction because I decided to make a plot and character choice.

I'm only going to say that are a lot of people who try to subvert ideas. If you look on tvtrope, they're going to talk about ways to subvert each and every trope. That might be fun in its own way, and I wouldn't tell you not to do it - or not to use the original trope, either - but I would still suggest making sure that you're using additional outside triggers of some kind, in some way, to help you stand out, or else manipulating the implied triggers in a way that goes beyond subversion.
 

solas

Scribe
I guess I am flip flopping here. As I did get inspiration from some fantasy shows I had a short addiction to, then it would only make sense that reading fantasy would probably do the same. I am reading some fantasy...I truly am. Eeeuuuhh!! I just noticed they have a poop emoticon!! :eek:
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I say it's important the two go hand in hand. I say those with a bigger pool of ideas, as the result of reading, have an easier time learning to be creative. That's why I think you exclude. Because you do not think a bigger pool makes creativity and learning to be creative easier.

You think I exclude. I said earlier that reading is work when you're a writer. Work. As in, a responsibility. What's exclusionary about that?


How is using another author's work and the concepts and plots they use as inspiration predictable to a reader reading my book?

This is the last time I am going to repeat myself in this conversation.

As a first time author, you're not looking at readers who are new to the genre. You're looking at readers who are on their fiftieth fantasy book, or way more, readers who read so much that one average book by a new writer isn't a big waste of time for them. Your readers are people who have a huge set of ideas about your subject matter, not a tiny one.

If you're using the same set of ideas as your reader, that's bad.

And it goes far beyond trolls and staves and wizards and elves. Character 1 is mad at Character 2 and doesn't want to face it. What do you do? If those are your triggers, probably you're going to do one of the ten or so things a reader might expect you to do. If you recognize that, you can find a new trigger and unlock new ideas to work with. But if you think, "I've got ten ideas, one of them will do just fine," you're drawing from the same ideas as everyone else expects you to.

Of course, things happen subconsciously, people have different tricks, different ways of picking up a skill, and so on. But the more you push yourself for new ideas, the better you'll be at breaking beyond the same ten in whatever situation you need to.

But the first step is recognizing when it is you are looking at the "same ten." And the more impressive that same ten looks, the less you are going to think, "No, those just aren't good enough."


The whole point of my argument is that using external inspiration is very helpful! You're describing exactly what I've been advocating all along. Taking a concept from somewhere and then working with that. Twisting it, changing it, turning it around and then making it fit. I don't understand how you think this illustrates your point.

I'm pretty sure what I've been advocating hasn't changed since before you joined the conversation.
 
I withdraw from this debate as it is pointless. Either I'm failing at making myself clear or you're not acknowledging my arguments at all. Whatever the reason, this debate is futile and is not progressing at all.

I feel like I've refuted every claim you've brought forth a dozen times and you keep repeating the same arguments. I suppose it's my fault. My posts are most likely confusing at times and you might've forgotten certain things I've said (and I things you said). But this is going nowhere.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I think I have a handle on what Devor is getting at... Correct me if I'm off base or short of the mark Devor.

He's not claiming reading is bad for creativity. Rather, if it's your primary source of inspiration, or triggers, then you're selling yourself short. While reading can provide useful knowledge of the genre, it can also be a hindrance IF you're not developing alternative means of creativity at the same time. Therefore, a writer should take a deeper look at methods that enhance their personal creativity outside of the ingestion of media.

For Devor, the use of drama words in place of words he considers weak is an effective trigger. There are probably many triggers out there and the success of any will be determined by the wielder.

I think there are two major disconnects in this discussion:

1) Most people are defensive of reading as an idea source, and for good reason. In many ways it's tried and true. Successful authors claim that reading a lot is a must. This is almost universal in my experience, although I'm certain exceptions exist.

2) The point of alternative creative exercises isn't to minimize the importance of reading. Rather, it is to establish the importance of creative thinking which has it's roots deep within the author. It may not be stimilus free, meaning we are all a product of our environment, but those exercises can draw upon creativity which may remain untapped if the reliance on fantasy media for ideas overwhlems the author's ability to think outside genre lines.

Am I close Devor?
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I withdraw from this debate as it is pointless. Either I'm failing at making myself clear or you're not acknowledging my arguments at all. Whatever the reason, this debate is futile and is not progressing at all.

I'm sorry that you feel that way.


I feel like I've refuted every claim you've brought forth a dozen times and you keep repeating the same arguments.

In my experience, when two smart people respect each other and have different opinions, very little of what they say to each other would actually need refuting.
 
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