Get rid of the dark lord!

[krunchee]

Hi guys,

My question today is this. What conflicts are available to is as fantasy writers?

I am struggling to think of something that doesn't involve a tyrant at the top trying to take over... What other conflicts are strong enough to write an entire novel on?

Cheers,
Zach

 

[Philip Overby]

I'm of the opinion that I don't really want to write anymore novels that deal with global conflicts. If other people want to do that, cool. But I'm more interested in local conflicts. While you may not be able to do a whole series on smaller conflicts, you can certainly do stand-alones that way.

For instance, instead of having a hero go off to fight the dark lord and his minions, you could have the hero deal with problems closer to home: trolls attacking the local farmsteads, a mysterious man arriving promising salvation for a price, or a runaway wizard seeking solace in a small village. Each of these situations could lead to loads of conflict, enough to fill up a whole book. It depends on how far you want to stretch a simple idea. I find that not getting too complicated can make the conflict that much stronger.

So while global conflicts that span continents are certainly fun, you could do a lot with a more localized conflict as well.

Here's another example of a character: a blacksmith down on his luck.

Some potential conflicts:

1. His wife is threatening to leave him if he doesn't stop drinking so much
2. His eldest son doesn't want to be a blacksmith and wants to go to a local magic school
3. A giant wolf has been roving the countryside killing folks
4. A rival silversmith moves into town, promising that the giant wolf can't be taken out with simple steel or iron, putting the blacksmith in a worse position
5. The largest storm the region has seen in fifteen years is approaching

Etc. etc.

So yeah, I think you could do a lot with a story like that if you just heap more and more trouble on your MC. I don't think fighting a dark lord is necessarily always the worst thing a person can face. Loneliness, disappointment, failure, worthlessness, jealousy, fear, these can all be themes that fuel conflict.

 

[Mythopoet]

Well, you've got the classic "36 Dramatic Situations":


Supplication
a Persecutor; a Suppliant; a Power in authority, whose decision is doubtful.
The Persecutor accuses the Suppliant of wrongdoing, and the Power makes a judgment against the Suppliant. Example: The Trial

Deliverance
an Unfortunate; a Threatener; a Rescuer
The Unfortunate has caused a conflict, and the Threatener is to carry out justice, but the Rescuer saves the Unfortunate. Example: Ifigenia in Tauride

Crime pursued by vengeance
a Criminal; an Avenger
The Criminal commits a crime that will not see justice, so the Avenger seeks justice by punishing the Criminal. Example: The Count of Monte Cristo

Vengeance taken for kin upon kin
Guilty Kinsman; an Avenging Kinsman; remembrance of the Victim, a relative of both.
Two entities, the Guilty and the Avenging Kinsmen, are put into conflict over wrongdoing to the Victim, who is allied to both. Example: Hamlet

Pursuit
Punishment; a Fugitive
The Fugitive flees Punishment for a misunderstood conflict. Example: Les Misérables

Disaster
a Vanquished Power; a Victorious Enemy or a Messenger
The Power falls from their place after being defeated by the Victorious Enemy or being informed of such a defeat by the Messenger. Example: Agamemnon (play)

Falling prey to cruelty/misfortune
an Unfortunate; a Master or a Misfortune
The Unfortunate suffers from Misfortune and/or at the hands of the Master. Example: Job (biblical figure)

Revolt
a Tyrant; a Conspirator
The Tyrant, a cruel power, is plotted against by the Conspirator. Example: Julius Caesar (play)

Daring enterprise
a Bold Leader; an Object; an Adversary
The Bold Leader takes the Object from the Adversary by overpowering the Adversary.

Abduction
an Abductor; the Abducted; a Guardian
The Abductor takes the Abducted from the Guardian. Example: Helen of Troy

The enigma
a Problem; an Interrogator; a Seeker
The Interrogator poses a Problem to the Seeker and gives a Seeker better ability to reach the Seeker's goals. Example: Oedipus and the Sphinx

Obtaining
(a Solicitor & an Adversary who is refusing) or (an Arbitrator & Opposing Parties)
The Solicitor is at odds with the Adversary who refuses to give the Solicitor what they Object in the possession of the Adversary, or an Arbitrator decides who gets the Object desired by Opposing Parties (the Solicitor and the Adversary). Example: Apple of Discord

Enmity of kin
a Malevolent Kinsman; a Hated or a reciprocally-hating Kinsman
The Malevolent Kinsman and the Hated or a second Malevolent Kinsman conspire together.

Rivalry of kin
the Preferred Kinsman; the Rejected Kinsman; the Object of Rivalry
The Object of Rivalry chooses the Preferred Kinsman over the Rejected Kinsman.

Murderous adultery
two Adulterers; a Betrayed Spouse
Two Adulterers conspire to kill the Betrayed Spouse. Example: [[Clytemnestra and Aegisthus]]

Madness
a Madman; a Victim
The Madman goes insane and wrongs the Victim.

Fatal imprudence
the Imprudent; a Victim or an Object Lost
The Imprudent, by neglect or ignorance, loses the Object Lost or wrongs the Victim.

Involuntary crimes of love
a Lover; a Beloved; a Revealer
The Revealer betrays the trust of either the Lover or the Beloved.

Slaying of kin unrecognized
the Slayer; an Unrecognized Victim
The Slayer kills the Unrecognized Victim.

Self-sacrifice for an ideal
a Hero; an Ideal; a Creditor or a Person/Thing sacrificed
The Hero sacrifices the Person or Thing for their Ideal, which is then taken by the Creditor.

Self-sacrifice for kin
a Hero; a Kinsman; a Creditor or a Person/Thing sacrificed
The Hero sacrifices a Person or Thing for their Kinsman, which is then taken by the Creditor.

All sacrificed for passion
a Lover; an Object of fatal Passion; the Person/Thing sacrificed
A Lover sacrifices a Person or Thing for the Object of their Passion, which is then lost forever.

Necessity of sacrificing loved ones
a Hero; a Beloved Victim; the Necessity for the Sacrifice
The Hero wrongs the Beloved Victim because of the Necessity for their Sacrifice.

Rivalry of superior vs. inferior
a Superior Rival; an Inferior Rival; the Object of Rivalry
A Superior Rival bests an Inferior Rival and wins the Object of Rivalry.

Adultery
two Adulterers; a Deceived Spouse
Two Adulterers conspire against the Deceived Spouse.

Crimes of love
a Lover; the Beloved
A Lover and the Beloved enter a conflict.

Discovery of the dishonour of a loved one
a Discoverer; the Guilty One
The Discoverer discovers the wrongdoing committed by the Guilty One.

Obstacles to love
two Lovers; an Obstacle
Two Lovers face an Obstacle together.

An enemy loved
a Lover; the Beloved Enemy; the Hater
The allied Lover and Hater have diametrically opposed attitudes towards the Beloved Enemy.

Ambition
an Ambitious Person; a Thing Coveted; an Adversary
The Ambitious Person seeks the Thing Coveted and is opposed by the Adversary.

Conflict with a god
a Mortal; an Immortal
The Mortal and the Immortal enter a conflict.

Mistaken jealousy
a Jealous One; an Object of whose Possession He is Jealous; a Supposed Accomplice; a Cause or an Author of the Mistake
The Jealous One falls victim to the Cause or the Author of the Mistake and becomes jealous of the Object and becomes conflicted with the Supposed Accomplice.

Erroneous judgement
a Mistaken One; a Victim of the Mistake; a Cause or Author of the Mistake; the Guilty One
The Mistaken One falls victim to the Cause of the Author of the Mistake and passes judgment against the Victim of the Mistake when it should be passed against the Guilty One instead.

Remorse
a Culprit; a Victim or the Sin; an Interrogator
The Culprit wrongs the Victim or commits the Sin, and is at odds with the Interrogator who seeks to understand the situation.

Recovery of a lost one
a Seeker; the One Found
The Seeker finds the One Found.

Loss of loved ones
a Kinsman Slain; a Kinsman Spectator; an Executioner
The killing of the Kinsman Slain by the Executioner is witnessed by the Kinsman Spectator.

Or you could go a bit more basic with the "7 Basic Plots":

Overcoming the Monster
The protagonist sets out to defeat an antagonistic force which threatens the protagonist and/or protagonist's homeland.

Rags to Riches
The poor protagonist acquires things such as power, wealth, and a mate, before losing it all and gaining it back upon growing as a person.

The Quest
The protagonist and some companions set out to acquire an important object or to get to a location, facing many obstacles and temptations along the way.

Voyage and Return
The protagonist goes to a strange land and, after overcoming the threats it poses to him/her, returns with nothing but experience.

Comedy
The protagonists are destined to be in love, but something is keeping them from being together, which is resolved by the end of the story.

Tragedy
The protagonist is a villain who falls from grace and whose death is a happy ending.

Rebirth
The protagonist is a villain or otherwise unlikable character who redeems him/herself over the course of the story.

 

[Steerpike]

The examples above are good. Basically, any conflict open to any writer of any kind of book is open to a fantasy writer.

 

[deilaitha]

I'm of the opinion that I don't really want to write anymore novels that deal with global conflicts. If other people want to do that, cool. But I'm more interested in local conflicts. While you may not be able to do a whole series on smaller conflicts, you can certainly do stand-alones that way.

...

So yeah, I think you could do a lot with a story like that if you just heap more and more trouble on your MC. I don't think fighting a dark lord is necessarily always the worst thing a person can face. Loneliness, disappointment, failure, worthlessness, jealousy, fear, these can all be themes that fuel conflict.

I really like to use the whole global conflict/dark lord bit as a backdrop to explore the themes that you mention. The dark lord or war cliche is a good thing for a metanarrative, while the actual story itself focuses more on a local basis. Other things that are interesting are civil wars or tribal disputes, or where the enemy is more of a faceless corporation or government collective. A WIP of mine that is currently on the back burner takes a local dispute that becomes global, all while focusing on one character. His main battle is one of emotional abandonment and attachment disorders (explored from a medieval perspective, since attachment disorders weren't really understood), while the secondary battle is a friend turned enemy and a vicious coup that throws his nation into civil war. The friend might be seen as a dark lord type, but it's more personal than, say, Sauron way way over there is doing bad stuff and making nasty rings.

The dark lord trope--particularly the distant, universally evil dark lord--as the central conflict is getting a little over-used, but I think it still has a place as a canvas for a much more personal story.

You are absolutely right about one thing, Phil:a dark lord or outside enemy is far from the worst thing a person can face. Something that is way under-explored in literature are disorders such as fetal alcohol syndrome or radical attachment disorder. My adopted sister is afflicted with both of these; the physical wiring of her own brain is a vicious foe to her. You would not believe the frustration she experiences on a day-to-day basis, knowing that she is "different" and can't keep up with other people. Not to mention the resentment she harbors for her birth mother for a) drinking and b) abandonment. Barring a miracle, a person with these problems will never be free from them. Their enemy lives in their own body.

Now that is a story worth telling.

 

[Mythopoet]

I really like to use the whole global conflict/dark lord bit as a backdrop to explore the themes that you mention.

It's worth noting that the quintessential Dark Lord story (LOTR) does precisely this. Sure, the threat of Sauron looms over the story, but most of the actual conflict portrayed in the story comes from much more local sources. Frodo's struggle with the consuming power of the Ring and the petrifying fear that is the main weapon of the Nazgul. Frodo and Sam's complicated relationship with Gollum. Gandalf's efforts to unite the Free Men of Rohan and Gondor. The betrayal of Saruman against his own order. Aragorn's feelings of guilt and uncertainty in the wake of Gandalf's fall. Eowyn's despair and unrequited love. Eomer's unjust banishment and struggle to maintain his loyalty to his country in spite of it. Every character's struggles with the themes of power and resisting corrupting power. I could go on and on. Sauron may have set the stage, but the conflict comes from numerous sources close to and within the characters.

 

[Feo Takahari]

I really like to use the whole global conflict/dark lord bit as a backdrop to explore the themes that you mention. The dark lord or war cliche is a good thing for a metanarrative, while the actual story itself focuses more on a local basis.

I'm not sure if anyone here is familiar with the Atelier series of video games. I'll use the TV Tropes description:

Okay, you know how every RPG has the grand heroes chosen by fate to become wonderful friends and stand up to the evil sorcerer/empire/corporation/monster and keep it from destroying the world?

This game is not about them.

You know how in almost every RPG, buried about halfway down the final dungeon, sitting next to the second to last save point in the game there's a shopkeeper who has every healing item in the game and every weapon or bit of armor that doesn't require an epic quest? The one who leaves you wondering: "Just how in blazes did she get down here? I'm the ridiculously powerful chosen one and it's almost impossible for me to do it so how did a lowly shopkeeper pull it off"?

This game is about her.

 

[Terry Greer]

One of my favorite fantasy books is Jack Vance's The eyes of the Overworld.
There's no big bad overlord in it - just a rather cunning theif (too cunning really) trying to get back to where he started.
The main conflict thus becomes who he meets enroute and the environment - and its superb.

You don't need to have a demon overlord (in fact they're pretty boring really) - the environment itself and world can be the best antagonist and challenge to overcome if handled well.

in my view Game of Thrones has succeeded because it doesn't have a central big bad - no Sauron equivalent - just great characters interacting in brutal and unexpected ways.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

...in my view Game of Thrones has succeeded because it doesn't have a central big bad - no Sauron equivalent - just great characters interacting in brutal and unexpected ways.

Agreed. It's about competing interests between characters. Most of which have tendencies within for both good and wickedness. Though, in the backdrop, we have the steady approach of something more ominous and sinister.

 

[hots_towel]

in my view Game of Thrones has succeeded because it doesn't have a central big bad - no Sauron equivalent - just great characters interacting in brutal and unexpected ways.

arent the white walkers the cliche bads from that series? the dragons are starting to look like they will end up filling that spot also (or more the roll of godzilla/king kong/ cloverfield). and GoT has a global conflict too with everyone hating each other.

im from the opinion that global conflicts and dark lords arent always bad. theyre only bad if done wrong. Mass effect wouldnt have had epic endings (the first and second one i mean) if the conflict was localized. Fll metal alchemist started with a local conflict, bu then blew up into another "world saving" finale. I think even breaking bad took the whole walter white thing to a national height.

it makes your finale that much more of a spectacle. If you want a non-global conflict for your story, then we as readers need to REALLY feel for your characters if you want that ending that leaves a lasting effect on us

 

[Ayaka Di'rutia]

The main conflict in one novel I wrote is the character trying to overcome herself - her grief, her grief-induced madness, and finding redemption. There is a very powerful villain that enters the story later and that forces the MC to overcome what you could call her final trial involving her main conflicts. She makes the right choice, and because of that, she is able to redeem herself and defeat the big bad and many of his followers.

In the same series I've worked on, there are other villains that have influence over large amounts of people, but deep down they are actually quite "human," and don't come across as the impossible, mysterious dark lords that can't be defeated until almost all hope is lost, tropes I've seen in LOTR, the Wheel of Time, and Beyonders. Powerful, sure, but not impossible as people and villains.

As intriguing as a dark lord in a book/series can be (if they're written correctly), I prefer villains I can get to know personally throughout the book or series.

 

[Penpilot]

Basically any plot in the whole universe can be used in fantasy. People are people even if they live in a fantasy world. You can choose to focus on any type of conflict you want and it can work as a novel.

Don't get caught up in the trap that every novel has to be world shaking with stakes involving all of existences. I wrote an urban fantasy about old friends coming back together after someone important to them dies. The personal stakes end up being high after one of them gets into some trouble, but if they fall, the world will still go around.

Evil overlord plots tend to come to the forefront because they're simpler on the surface, big bad guy and good guys try to stop them; big obstacles and big triumphs. Things tend to plot themselves a little.

But if you take something like a baker's son get's sent to summer camp where they get to ride dragons, the plot isn't so obvious as the evil overlord. You'd have to really think about the type of story you're telling. Is this a coming of age story? Is this high adventure? Is it a survival story after the boy gets lost in the woods?

Some people, if given those parameters, wouldn't know where to start. Plotting for me became a lot easier once I learned a story structure. There are many different theories on structure out there. Not one of them is the right structure or the best, but knowing at least one helps in organizing your thoughts, and gives you direction when developing a story. I'd suggest you google a few up. I'd recommend you google Dan Wells 7 point structure in youtube. He describes one of the plotting structures that I use.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Basically any plot in the whole universe can be used in fantasy. People are people even if they live in a fantasy world. You can choose to focus on any type of conflict you want and it can work as a novel.

I'd like to second this.
My current WIP is based on a very simple idea: boy meets girl. It could have been written in the real world, or in the near or far future, or as a historical romance, or any other setting really. I chose to put it in a fantasy setting. It's a fairly low-key and laid back story, but it's definitely fantasy.
I've got magic and spirits and strange creatures. There's brewing of potions and there's forbidden mysteries not to be tampered with. All these things add depth to the world, but in the end, they're irrelevant to the outcome of the story. It could just as well have taken place on a space ship.

 

[Chessie]

Boy meets girl is my favorite. Out of any storyline, its the one that gives me goosebumps with the infinite amount of variety. It must be a girl thing.

 

[Philip Overby]

To verify my earlier post, I have written one epic and it will probably turn into a trilogy. It has regional ramifications, but there isn't really a dark lord. Well, maybe there is, I don't know. That said, it will be the only series I do in that style. I'm more interested in doing smaller, weirder (maybe) stories after that. I'm a big fan of China Mieville's style of each novel being like his own spin on different genres (mystery, fantasy, etc.) Not sure if this will kill me as a writer, but I'd like to not be confined by a strict definition of what I'm supposed to be writing as a fantasy writer.

I do think if your story needs a powerful dark lord, it's fine to use one to be a source of conflict. But really as Penpilot said, don't be limited by "fantasy style" plots. The people that read books are humans from Earth (to the best of my knowledge anyway) so using the human experience to build conflict is certainly helpful.

 

[Jabrosky]

One of the plots I am developing at the moment does feature a "dark lord" of sorts. Actually, she's a lady rather than a lord, and she doesn't necessarily want to conquer the entire world. Instead she targets one particular country, namely the heroine's. What makes my villain different from your stereotypical dark lord is that she's motivated less by a generic evilness than a specific ideology (namely racial or cultural superiority). In my opinion devotion to an oppressive ideology can do wonders for villainy.

 

[skip.knox]

My current story involves a house that is dying. An ogre tries to save it even as the magicians who reside there try to flee it. Whether the house stands or falls, the rest of the world will go on. A previous short story involved a kid in the desert and an Oldsmobile Roadmaster.

I recommend the OP read more widely. As others have pointed out, there are (literally) a million stories to tell, any of which could be placed in a fantasy setting. And there remain yet another million stories to tell involving evil overlords. Seventy percent of which will be ... well, you know.

 

[Terry Greer]

arent the white walkers the cliche bads from that series? the dragons are starting to look like they will end up filling that spot also (or more the roll of godzilla/king kong/ cloverfield). and GoT has a global conflict too with everyone hating each other.

I take the point, but the original question posed a big bad in the context of a tyrant trying to take over - The white walkers are certainly a threat - and there may be a 'big bad' leader - but I hope not as that would be a cop out. Currently at least I wouldn't really classify them as big bads though - personally I'd keep that for individuals (e..g. the equivalent of a dark lord) otherwise the term ends up getting used as anything that causes conflict.

In the same way dragons are really a force of nature - there isn't a 'Smaug' like one among them, and I doubt that one will become a threat even like Vermithrax in Dragonslayer - they're more weapons of war.

GOT has global conflict sure - but the real meat of the story is how individuals treat each other - and how decisions have consequences - I really think this grounding in human behavior rather than the usual fantasy tropes and sterotypical bad guys is what has broken the barrier to mainstream acceptance.

If you look hard enough there are potential sterotypes in there - but to me they avoid that label nicely (so far at least).

 

[hots_towel]

I really think this grounding in human behavior rather than the usual fantasy tropes and sterotypical bad guys is what has broken the barrier to mainstream acceptance.

This i can definitely agree with. It's also why I hardly consider it a fantasy to begin with.

I personally am not too excited about this series (I read the first book and didnt care for it), but I did happen upon an interview with martin where he pretty much agreed that his work is more akin to a drama set in a historical fiction. In which case, there's really no need for a dark lord.

I think it's safe to say none of us really expect a Sauron (though you could argue with Sauron's motives that he isnt inherently evil) or a big bad when you pick up a general fiction book about a bank teller or something

 

[Mythopoet]

GOT has global conflict sure - but the real meat of the story is how individuals treat each other - and how decisions have consequences - I really think this grounding in human behavior rather than the usual fantasy tropes and sterotypical bad guys is what has broken the barrier to mainstream acceptance.

Nope, sorry, I don't buy that. Good fantasy has always had those things.

The real difference with GOT seems to be that everyone in it treats everyone else badly and everyone has lots of sex and then goes around killing each other. I think it makes modern people feel better about themselves.