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Is magic always "Fireball Throwing"?

Reaver

Staff
Moderator
Isn't nature a mystical and mysterious force? In my opinion, it can be a great source of power for magic. I mean, do we truly know why nature works the way it does? I agree that science isn't a very good idea to use for a source of magic. Science doesn't have the answers to everything. What about the life force of all living things as a source of magic? Isn't what "The Force" is in the Star Wars universe? My question is (for anyone who cares to answer)...is this a good thing to use in stories or has it been done too many times? Any guidance or opinions is greatly appreciated.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
That has been done many times, but if you like that style of magic system then go for it!! You must feel comfortable with whatever magic that you use in your stories, you need to really like it =)
 

Reaver

Staff
Moderator
I appreciate your take on this, Sheilawisz. I am currently using this lifeforce idea as one of many sources of magic in my stories. I guess my twist on it is that there is a group of evil mages that murder other beings (both sentient and non-sentient) and collect this lifeforce, using it to cast their dark magic.
 

Ravana

Istar
An ever bigger question to ask is the morality behind a mage's actions, especially a powerful one. What if there were an exceptionally powerful wizard offering his services to anyone, no questions asked? "You want the King turned into a pile of ash? No problem. That'll be 20,000 Gold Talents, please." Of course, this is the great thing about writing fantasy fiction...anything is possible.

I always like to consider the economic effects of magic, too–economics in general being something most world-builders overlook (well, okay, are bored stiff by… but still…). We too easily say "magic changes everything," without taking into account just what "everything" means–such as, for instance, the possibility that the commonly-seen scarcity of mages is a consequence of them all being lynched by tinkers and farriers they've put out of work. Or at least craft guilds. Conversely, what does the average mage do for a living? I don't recall Gandalf charging fees for putting on his fireworks displays.…

My comment on the exceptionally powerful wizard, though, would be the same one I always like to keep in mind about alchemists: if he can really do what he claims, what does he need your money for? ;)
 
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Solomon Tan

Minstrel
Gandalf don't earn money, he magically turns stones into gold.. because he's the powerful wizard! hahahaha. just a joke..

Reaver: I do plan to use human life force as a source of ultimate magical powers and also immortality, which is craved by almost every humans.. And this life force can be used for good or evil, depending on the bearer's intent..

Economic effects of magic.. yeah.. I do heard before that in the past, real life alchemists claimed that they can turn lead into gold by altering their properties.. And one reason they are arrested for their researches, is that their actions will tip the balance of the economics of the world, which was generally controlled by the rich and powerful.

But then, if there are too much restrictions, then it's not going to be a fantasy story.. Maybe fantasy stories allows some unrealistic things to happen, like where do the wizard gets his money...
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
I appreciate your take on this, Sheilawisz. I am currently using this lifeforce idea as one of many sources of magic in my stories. I guess my twist on it is that there is a group of evil mages that murder other beings (both sentient and non-sentient) and collect this lifeforce, using it to cast their dark magic.
You're welcome, Reaver =) I like that idea of evil mages murdering creatures to steal their lifeforce and cast magic!! I have evil mages in my stories too...

Ravana: That's an interesting point about the economics of a world =) In my worlds, the common people use silver coins and sometimes diamonds and amethysts as money but the mages do not use money at all!! They don't need it even though they have cities and societies of their own, because they can take out of nowhere anything that they need or want- it's not that they "conjure" things out of thin air, I mean... they make things appear out of nowhere and that's all

They like to visit the cities of common people and they buy things just for fun like wine and plum juice (paying with silver coins that were taken out of nowhere) so the people like the mages sometimes =)

As an additional note about the name of this thread, my mages do not throw fireballs at their targets... they throw stuff much worse than that!!!
 

TWErvin2

Auror
My world has different types of spellcasters:

Wizards (air, fire, water, earth). I've not had a 'fireball' explode in any of my novels thus far, although one fire wizard did send up a ball of flame that separated, sending darts of it down into his enemy.

Then there are seers, witches, sorcerers, necromancers, enchanters, conjurerers, and healers. Some powers are subtle: seers can see the past and future, and draw memories and images from an individual's mind. Where as sorcerers can break limbs and rupture organs (such as eyeballs) of those he/she directs power at.

For every writer, it really depends on the world created and the place magic has in it. If magic fits the world and is handled properly, a reader will believe a wizard can toss around a fireball or two. Or they'd more readily believe sutle curses or spirit summonings being cast by users of magic.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
My world has different types of spellcasters:

Wizards (air, fire, water, earth). I've not had a 'fireball' explode in any of my novels thus far, although one fire wizard did send up a ball of flame that separated, sending darts of it down into his enemy.

Then there are seers, witches, sorcerers, necromancers, enchanters, conjurerers, and healers. Some powers are subtle: seers can see the past and future, and draw memories and images from an individual's mind. Where as sorcerers can break limbs and rupture organs (such as eyeballs) of those he/she directs power at.
That sounds great!! Your stories must be very interesting with such a collection of different magic users in your world =) I have several cultures of mages, but even though they are different in clothing, cities, government and society structure, they all are basically the same magic with similar powers and just a different... style
 

ascanius

Inkling
I don't understand what everyone means by subtle versus in you face fireballs KABOOM! I mean wouldn't the manner in which the magic is used be subtle or apparent and not the magic intrinsically. Or do you mean the manner in which magic is achieved, chanting a spell versus whispering the name of the wind. Or is subtle magic, magic that is not visibly apparent such as with Gandalf.
 
casting fire in my magic system is more like using a flamethrower because my magic system is based on atoms, so when my people are using magic they are really manipulating atoms. Fire is just making the atoms in the air vibrate so rapidly that they catch fire. Lightning is moving electrons around. Wind is just moving the atoms forward. And ice is stopping the atoms from vibrating. Etc.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
I don't understand what everyone means by subtle versus in you face fireballs KABOOM! I mean wouldn't the manner in which the magic is used be subtle or apparent and not the magic intrinsically. Or do you mean the manner in which magic is achieved, chanting a spell versus whispering the name of the wind. Or is subtle magic, magic that is not visibly apparent such as with Gandalf.
Ascanius, the difference between a subtle magic and the more blasty kind would be found in both ways that you have described, the way that it is used and the magic intrinsically =) Magic that is not always apparent like it happens with Gandalf is a good example of subtle magic (instead of Gandalf throwing a huge green lightning that kills ten thousand orcs in one blast!!) other example would be my magic system: my mages can deliver huge blasts and everything, but they have other powers that are invisible and subtle like a radiation-like thing capable of silently invading an entire world and killing those exposed within a few minutes

Combining both subtle style and blasty kind magic in the same system is possible and interesting =)

sheila, i gotta say your mages sound quite intriguing.
Thank you!! =)

Rhëadïn: What a cool name you have!! Your magic system sounds like science-style magic (which is not my favourite) but many would like that in my opinion... can they re arrange atoms to transform rocks into gold, or a person into a pumpkin??
 

Amanita

Maester
capable of silently invading an entire world and killing those exposed within a few minutes
Well, that's not exactly what I'd call subtle. :D
But I think both your magic system and Rhëadïn sound very interesting. Som if you like to share more on an extra-thread, I'm certainly going to comment.
 

Shadoe

Sage
casting fire in my magic system is more like using a flamethrower because my magic system is based on atoms, so when my people are using magic they are really manipulating atoms. Fire is just making the atoms in the air vibrate so rapidly that they catch fire. Lightning is moving electrons around. Wind is just moving the atoms forward. And ice is stopping the atoms from vibrating. Etc.
That's very similar to my system. The magic-users can manipulate elements, they can make you grow old, or stop your heart, but fireballs... not so much.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
Well, that's not exactly what I'd call subtle. :D
But I think both your magic system and Rhëadïn sound very interesting. Som if you like to share more on an extra-thread, I'm certainly going to comment.
Thank you!! Well, the other things that they do are blasty kind and even when they do little tricks (like transforming people into crystal statues or something) violet sparks or a flash of white light are seen clearly, so the invisible radiation attacks are indeed their subtle stuff =)

Shadoe: That sounds cool, you mean like manipulating life itself??
 

Amanita

Maester
The magic-users can manipulate elements, they can make you grow old, or stop your heart, but fireballs... not so much.
By elements do you mean chemical elements? ;) I'd really like to see someone else do this somewhere.
 

Stranger

Dreamer
I find that whenever I write a story in which mages can shoot fireballs out of their hands, it never ends well.

"Ahh!!! My hair is on fire!"
"Ahh!!! YOUR hair is ALSO on fire!"
"Ahh!!! You know that map we need for our Very Important Journey To Save The World and Everything? On fire."
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
"Ahh!!! You know that map we need for our Very Important Journey To Save The World and Everything? On fire."

Heh. Yeah, people don't think about that stuff. It is fin in D&D-type games, too. The PCs swim across some body of water, or through some underground river, maybe using magic to help them breath. They get to the other side, and you inform them that their maps have been destroyed by the water. Then you ask "By the way, where do you keep your spell book?" and you can see the sinking realization on their faces.
 

Shadoe

Sage
By elements do you mean chemical elements? ;) I'd really like to see someone else do this somewhere.
I mean the basic building blocks of life. They can make plants grow, or people. Or slice a person to ribbons without tools.
 

ThinkerX

Myth Weaver
Been thinking about magic for use in fiction for a long while now (decades).

Three premises or starting points:

First, I used to read up a great deal on the legitimate real world studies into paranormal/psionic phenomena/abilities - everything from ghosts stories to Rhine's ESP and TK experiments to Remote Viewing to...well, the list goes on and on.

Second, I did a lot of research into the way the ancients viewed magic. The big goal for many of the magicians of antiquity was to gain control of a 'spirit' which could then be commanded to do wondrous things. Some types of magic were possible without the aid of such a spirit, but, these magicians, by and large were deemed second raters (goetics)

Third, Lovecraft. Lots of weird conjurations, baffling protections, and occult effects in Lovecraft.

So...I took these premises, mixed them together, tossed in a few other things, and...

Way, way, back, the 'Ancient Aliens' showed up on earth, abducted large numbers of humans, and took them to a world they used as a sort of laboratory/zoo. They performed a great many operations on many of these subjects, some crude, some subtle, many cruel. At times they returned to earth and brought back additional specimens. Dwarves and elves came out of these experiments. So did magic - genetic modifications that resulted in 'enhanced' PSI ability in some people.

Those with enhanced PSI learned tricks, meditations, and formula that let them focus their abilities fairly precisely (spells). However, compared to what they saw the aliens doing, these abilities were not all that great. They also became aware of the 'spirit world' and some sought to make pacts with its denizens to increase their own power. Some of these 'spirits' were relatively benign, others not so benign, and some were straight out of the Lovecraftian dimensions.

Time passed. The ancient aliens packed up shop and left, leaving behind their test subjects, humans and others.

In the time of my stories, about one person in a thousand has enough in the way of PSI ability to actually learn 'spells'. Most do not; they go through life being abnormally lucky at dice, or with an infallible sense of direction, or with a knack for telling truth from lies. Most of the others end up in the priesthood. About one person in six with talent will actually seek out training as a magician - or about 1 in 10,000 of the general population (but the empires population is in the twenty million plus range, or about 2000 magicians). A smaller number of these magicians - maybe a couple hundred throughout the empire - have greater than normal talent, and can work true wonders. The rest need their abilities 'enhanced' if they wish to do so. Chief of those alternatives was 'pacts with familiar spirits'.

It became apparent to the more ethical mages over a millenia ago that cutting deals with spirits - especially the Lovecraftian ones - wasn't exactly a wise thing to do. They sought alternatives.

One alternative, adopted very early on, when the ancient aliens were still a going concern - live in a place conducive to magic (nodes or ley lines). These places tend to get declared Holy Ground, and usually have a temple or church parked on them.

A second alternative was to 'go mystical' - really focus on the magic, turn into a sort of monk. It works...but...

A third alternative was the 'magic potion' route. There are several of these, some with dubious effect, some that work well in the short term, but have long term health/sanity issues, and one or two that are 'cure or kill' type drugs (usually kill - but if you live, well, you got power).

Another alternative was the creation of a focus object (wizards staff, crystal ball, magic ring, ect). Long drawn out uncertain process. And if said wizard lost the dang thing...

None of the 'enhancement options' are certain. Some can be combined - living in an area of greater magical potential with a focus object, for example.

Those with magical talent who join the clergy often end up in one of the mystical orders. They become faith healers, exorcists, and the like.

As to the 'fireball' bit...

...it is possible in this system. These people live in a world of fire: hearth fires, candles, lanterns, torches. Lots of oil and other flamables around - like kerosene type liquids - as a result. With these substances, what is really dangerous is the *fumes* - they can be just like a bomb going off under the right conditions. Which is pretty much how a 'fireball' in this system works - the wizard literally thows something doused in flamable liquid at the target, using a spell that creates a 'spark' which unleashes its explosive effect. (sort of a magical grenade). Pyrokinesis.
 
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