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Diversity: Multi ethnic and Biracial characters

I wish I could find the post from a video game developer describing why most protagonists are straight White men cause it's much more elegant than what I'm going to summarize here. Basically he starts with a Black Lesbian protagonist who is morally ambiguous, has a drinking problem, and can't hold down a steady romantic relationship. Then the company gets nervous about how Blacks, women, and the LBGT community will react to her being an alcoholic criminal who enjoys one night stands and so he has to choose between making her perfect(and thus uninteresting as a protagonist) or just making her a straight White guy and keeping all the flaws.

There's a very loud(but small) group who believe there is a "right" way to depict a character who is not White, Male, Straight, etc... and so they force creators to just not use diverse characters rather than put up with people screaming (insert insulting term here) filling up their social media pages.

And to me it's not just Humans. Why are Elves, Dwarves and other fantasy races predominantly White? (and no Drow don't count since they're Caucasian featured with grey skin.) Where's the diversity in non-humanity?
 

X Equestris

Maester
I wish I could find the post from a video game developer describing why most protagonists are straight White men cause it's much more elegant than what I'm going to summarize here. Basically he starts with a Black Lesbian protagonist who is morally ambiguous, has a drinking problem, and can't hold down a steady romantic relationship. Then the company gets nervous about how Blacks, women, and the LBGT community will react to her being an alcoholic criminal who enjoys one night stands and so he has to choose between making her perfect(and thus uninteresting as a protagonist) or just making her a straight White guy and keeping all the flaws.

There's a very loud(but small) group who believe there is a "right" way to depict a character who is not White, Male, Straight, etc... and so they force creators to just not use diverse characters rather than put up with people screaming (insert insulting term here) filling up their social media pages.

And to me it's not just Humans. Why are Elves, Dwarves and other fantasy races predominantly White? (and no Drow don't count since they're Caucasian featured with grey skin.) Where's the diversity in non-humanity?

Yeah, I've seen it too, where a small, vocal group gets super upset whenever a minority protagonist is shown to have flaws, or when a minority character is an antagonist. Which is sad, because that ends up pushing creators, not just in the gaming industry, towards just sticking with straight white men because it's less risky, and won't see you get labeled racist, sexist, etc.

As far as the fantasy races, it's likely because many fantasy settings try to be pseudo-European, so writers make them default towards white.
 

Russ

Istar
As far as the fantasy races, it's likely because many fantasy settings try to be pseudo-European, so writers make them default towards white.

I have to agree with this point, but it is really kind of funny. If you read enough material from when people really seemed to believe in dwarves etc, many of them depict them as being black or of different colour. I think the blossoming of fantasy took place in the UK and US during a period when those countries were functionally imperialist and these ideas got very white washed and that has stuck with us to a degree.

WE often tend of over simply things in our worldviews. We have the choice to do that in our writing, but I think our writing is poorer and less relevant when we do.
 

X Equestris

Maester
I have to agree with this point, but it is really kind of funny. If you read enough material from when people really seemed to believe in dwarves etc, many of them depict them as being black or of different colour. I think the blossoming of fantasy took place in the UK and US during a period when those countries were functionally imperialist and these ideas got very white washed and that has stuck with us to a degree.

WE often tend of over simply things in our worldviews. We have the choice to do that in our writing, but I think our writing is poorer and less relevant when we do.

I think we also have to factor in Tolkien's influence on the genre. I mean, there was and is a lot of copy-cat writing.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
I cannot bring myself to make my writing serve a socio-political agenda. For one thing, it's enough of a struggle just to make a readable story, but beyond that the only agenda I want to advance is my own. I don't mind having a story reflect my own world-view. But that's it. If I want to try to change the world, there are more effective platforms.

Race is such a complex topic, especially in the USA. Brits here know that people from India/Pakistan were called blacks for a very long time (still are?). Some of my own ancestors, Italians, were subjected to racial slurs in the US. Irish were considered sub-human. Historically, most tribal societies were incredibly racist, regarding pretty much anyone outside the tribe as being less than human, regardless of skin color. Attitudes change. They can take centuries, but they change.

To me, the conversations about race and gender I see here (and in many other places) reflect the fact that attitudes are in fact changing right now. The pace is glacial and doesn't help much for a person currently victimized, and maybe that's the key difference. Some people feel the race issue *personally*. And if they are a writer, they feel a sense of urgency not felt by others.

Write what you feel, whatever you feel.
 

Tom

Istar
YES! Well, you can probably see from my picture that I have mostly Spanish / Northern Mexican features but I'm actually equal parts Spanish, Mexican, German, & Swedish. That's 3-parts European and 1 part North American. I'm usually told to "pick" the Mexican side. I have 2 sisters that look similar to me (who get the same) and 3 with paler skin, blonde hair, and green or blue eyes. You can probably guess what side they're told to pick.

That's definitely one of the things that bugs me most about people. What is there to pick? I don't have a problem with it - it only seems to be problem for people that need to label everyone.

Don't get me wrong, it's not the end of the world but it can be pretty annoying.

Indeed, it's very frustrating. Some relatives on the German side of my family disapprove of my interest in my Irish heritage, and have told me that my Irish blood doesn't count for anything, and I should only identify as German. My mother is Dark Irish, and my father stereotypically Germanic, and I take after him. They seem to take it as proof that I'm "more German" than my sister, who looks like my mother. Um, the laws of genetic inheritance beg to differ...

But seriously--why can't a person embrace all their ethnic heritage? Why do you have to identify with the one group you happen to resemble the most? Why can't we accept multi-ethnic and biracial people as having a whole, rich heritage of their own instead of telling them to pick a side?
 
I cannot bring myself to make my writing serve a socio-political agenda. For one thing, it's enough of a struggle just to make a readable story, but beyond that the only agenda I want to advance is my own. I don't mind having a story reflect my own world-view. But that's it. If I want to try to change the world, there are more effective platforms.

Race is such a complex topic, especially in the USA. Brits here know that people from India/Pakistan were called blacks for a very long time (still are?). Some of my own ancestors, Italians, were subjected to racial slurs in the US. Irish were considered sub-human. Historically, most tribal societies were incredibly racist, regarding pretty much anyone outside the tribe as being less than human, regardless of skin color. Attitudes change. They can take centuries, but they change.

To me, the conversations about race and gender I see here (and in many other places) reflect the fact that attitudes are in fact changing right now. The pace is glacial and doesn't help much for a person currently victimized, and maybe that's the key difference. Some people feel the race issue *personally*. And if they are a writer, they feel a sense of urgency not felt by others.

Write what you feel, whatever you feel.

To me it's not serving a socio-political agenda. Since the birth of my daughter 4 years ago I've started taking more care in constructing female characters and making them more prominent. Through social networks and con appearances I've broadened my pool of friends and acquaintances and been exposed to cultures and outlooks that I hadn't encountered in my small southern hometown. To me adding the diversity, especially since some of my stories take place in a modern fantasy setting, is reflective of my own broadened experiences and the expansive world around me. Even fantasy writers draw from the real world.
 

buyjupiter

Maester
I wish I could find the post from a video game developer describing why most protagonists are straight White men cause it's much more elegant than what I'm going to summarize here. Basically he starts with a Black Lesbian protagonist who is morally ambiguous, has a drinking problem, and can't hold down a steady romantic relationship. Then the company gets nervous about how Blacks, women, and the LBGT community will react to her being an alcoholic criminal who enjoys one night stands and so he has to choose between making her perfect(and thus uninteresting as a protagonist) or just making her a straight White guy and keeping all the flaws.

I think the biggest reason this is a "problem" is because we (as consumers of media) see very few representations of anyone other than SWM/F. So each representation of non-SWM/F counts MORE.

If, to use your example, there were 500 representations of black, queer, alcoholic, women (take whichever of those you like and mix 'em up) out of say, 800 characters altogether...each individual representation would matter less, because you have a ton of versions to choose from. But because we're only seeing two or three representations of black people, and two or three representations of queer people, and ok, maybe 30% of the characters are women, we don't get to see very nuanced representations because everyone's pointing out how not to do THE ONE AND ONLY representation.

I think a very simple "fix" to this issue, is to make more of the cast of characters diverse by setting your story within an environment where everyone is African/Asian/Native American/Jewish/Muslim/Buddhist/etc or by making your society so diverse that there are bound to be multiple instances of different ethnicities within one story. If there weren't "token" characters as a nod to diversity, and actual diversity, I think the conversation would be very different.
 

Trick

Auror
If there weren't "token" characters as a nod to diversity, and actual diversity, I think the conversation would be very different.

Agreed. If it was a matter of diversity for it's own sake and not to combat the the negative things, like racism and sexism, then it wouldn't be an issue. If someone is racist, it's unlikely you can argue them out of it. I say, ignore the idiots and write for good readers. That means not having to show why racism etc. is bad because, well, if that's not obvious to someone then they're probably already lost on that issue. Just have more diverse characters if you want to because it makes things more interesting.
 

buyjupiter

Maester
I think a very simple "fix" to this issue, is to make more of the cast of characters diverse by setting your story within an environment where everyone is African/Asian/Native American/Jewish/Muslim/Buddhist/etc or by making your society so diverse that there are bound to be multiple instances of different ethnicities within one story. If there weren't "token" characters as a nod to diversity, and actual diversity, I think the conversation would be very different.

And in the interest of passing this along, as an example of including more diverse voices where everyone (or almost everyone) is African: this spec fic literary magazine just came out recently and the first two issues are free! (NOT in any way shape or form affiliated with this magazine, but this will get you some different perspective on SFF from outside the US/UK.)

Omenana: Issue 1, number 1 | omenana

I found out about this from Nalo Hopkinson via Twitter. I've been reading the first issue and I like what I've read so far. The images conjured up from the descriptions are vivid and unique to African cultures. There are some wobbly word issues, but I think that may (mostly) stem from non-native English speaker issues (?), as well as the way English is just used differently in places like Nigeria or Jamaica or the Philippines.

But the "doing diversity wrong" debate is mostly moot when the setting is full of people who would be diverse here in the US/UK/Western Europe/Australia. If you wanna see some good examples of what I mean, this mag is full of 'em.
 
I cannot bring myself to make my writing serve a socio-political agenda. For one thing, it's enough of a struggle just to make a readable story, but beyond that the only agenda I want to advance is my own. I don't mind having a story reflect my own world-view. But that's it. If I want to try to change the world, there are more effective platforms.
I'm not looking for anything sensational.If it helps at all, I'm actually very Conservative. I'm not generally looking for some grand social statement. I don't think including bi-racial characters needs to be a social statement. I wouldn't consider including a female character a "social statement" unless the author blatantly uses her to push an agenda. There are Feminists but that doesn't make women themselves a statement. Just the same there are people looking to argue over racism but that doesn't mean throwing in a multiethnic character is making a statement. Hell, they don't even have to be MCs. The fact of the matter is that a huge portion of people in the US and now, the world, are of mixed origins. Even the people that claim to be "just white" (a term I personally hate btw- it should be "Caucasian") anyway, even "white" Americans are generally mixed.

I'm the last person looking for a hand out. I don't want sympathy for being Hispanic or "white" or being mixed or being a woman. Actually, I don't really want sympathy at all. I find it condescending. I'm just tired of everyone talking about race issues as if it is entirely black vs white (pun intended) when that really applies to fewer and fewer people.

My point was not that I am a victim. My point was simply that if we are looking to include more diverse characters we need to think beyond the parameters of throwing in a token black or gay character and feel like we've hit our "diversity" quota.

Perhaps my being Californian influences me as well. I've never traveled very much but from what I hear most places aren't like us. We're supposed to be remarkably integrated and diverse. I wouldn't know. To me it's just normal. I know at least a dozen people that are mixed- Mexican and Filipino, French and Vietnamese, Japanese and Norwegian, Irish and Venezuelan, Irish and Mexican (which is more common than you'd think) etc.

Chances are, the next five books I'm going to read will be about a straight Caucasian male and I'm perfectly okay with that. Hell, one of my WIP revolves entirely around straight "whites". It would inappropriate for, say, historical fiction but I'm just surprised that Spec Fiction hasn't explored this more. Ultimately, I just want "diversity" to be ... well ... more diverse.
 

Jabrosky

Banned
Even the people that claim to be "just white" (a term I personally hate btw- it should be "Caucasian") anyway, even "white" Americans are generally mixed.
If I may raise a trivial disagreement, I don't like "Caucasian" at all. Most of us come from Northern Europe, not the Caucasus Mountains. It would be like calling all "black" people in then world "Congolese" even if they're actually from Ethiopia or Tanzania. If you insist on avoid the "white" adjective, "Nordic" would work fine for most of us.
 
I think the biggest reason this is a "problem" is because we (as consumers of media) see very few representations of anyone other than SWM/F. So each representation of non-SWM/F counts MORE.

If, to use your example, there were 500 representations of black, queer, alcoholic, women (take whichever of those you like and mix 'em up) out of say, 800 characters altogether...each individual representation would matter less, because you have a ton of versions to choose from. But because we're only seeing two or three representations of black people, and two or three representations of queer people, and ok, maybe 30% of the characters are women, we don't get to see very nuanced representations because everyone's pointing out how not to do THE ONE AND ONLY representation.

I think a very simple "fix" to this issue, is to make more of the cast of characters diverse by setting your story within an environment where everyone is African/Asian/Native American/Jewish/Muslim/Buddhist/etc or by making your society so diverse that there are bound to be multiple instances of different ethnicities within one story. If there weren't "token" characters as a nod to diversity, and actual diversity, I think the conversation would be very different.

But to get to that level you need these representations. You can't expect Black Alcoholic Lesbians to be Cosby-ised and Mary Sued until they reach some magical saturation point that artists are allowed to make them interesting and flawed characters. To me you're destroying any chance of diversity by insisting there is a "right" way to portray a person. The example I gave could be a very nuanced powerful person, but you insist on me reducing her to a one note stereotype that fits your personal vision.

And that's the crux of the matter, take the Trans-gender villain they used in Batgirl recently. It wasn't handled as well as it should have been according to some of my Trans friends, but it didn't deserve the unbelievable amounts of hate the internet leveled at it either. They wanted to just send a polite message to Dc offering suggestions on what needed to be done differently but were lost in the howl of the deeply offended. The result? DC will probably NEVER do another Trans character because it offends so many people. Some of the biggest proponents of Diversity have also run the some of the very authors who write diverse fiction, because they aren't straight white male, off the internet because they weren't writing those "safe" characters they approved of in the "correct" way.

If given a choice between writing a neutered stereotype that has to conform to a predetermined set of variables and follow a designated path or an actual person with all their flaws and humanity intact? I'm going for the latter, and since straight white male is the only choice that allows for that diversity that's probably what I'm going to have to stick with.
 

Legendary Sidekick

The HAM'ster
Moderator
If I may raise a trivial disagreement, I don't like "Caucasian" at all. Most of us come from Northern Europe, not the Caucasus Mountains. It would be like calling all "black" people in then world "Congolese" even if they're actually from Ethiopia or Tanzania. If you insist on avoid the "white" adjective, "Nordic" would work fine for most of us.
Caucasian is a silly word. I actually prefer just "white." It's inaccurate in the sense that my wife has lighter skin than I do, depending on the time of year. (I'm half Italian, so I tan more easily.)

I don't know that "Nordic" covers most "white" people. I picture blond hair and blue eyes when I read "Nordic." I think of white people as descended from pretty much anywhere in Europe and also northern Asia—Russia and such. "Caucasian" is simply the accepted lingo.
 
Legally it can be an issue. Virginia, where I live, still has a law on the books that says if you're as little as 1/32nd another race you can't be considered "White". Technically I'm full blooded Cherokee under VA law even though it was my Great-Great Grandmother who was the Native American.
 

Tom

Istar
So Virginia still has that "one-drop" rule? Huh, I would have thought it would have been done away with by now.

In New York, we have a multiple-choice format for race on all legal documents--you "check all that apply". I don't think we have a criteria for who gets considered white or not, though I could be wrong. Sometimes living here makes me crazy, what with all the corruption and ineffective bureaucracy in our state government, but it has its perks.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Legally it can be an issue. Virginia, where I live, still has a law on the books that says if you're as little as 1/32nd another race you can't be considered "White". Technically I'm full blooded Cherokee under VA law even though it was my Great-Great Grandmother who was the Native American.

Same here. My grandmother's grandmother was full Cherokee.
 

Gryphos

Auror
I've recently made a rather large decision with regards to my current long-standing WIP, and that it that I've chosen to make the main protagonist, who previously was white, mixed race. Alek Stove's father Aven Cadwyn hails from the Wynding Valleys (which is pretty much Wales), while his mother Zahrah Stove comes from Goljahan (which draws influence from several Arabic nations). I've already found that this gives the character of Alek a few more dimensions than I thought, and makes him (to me, at least) a more interesting character.

It didn't help that I came to this decision after finishing the first book in the series, but I was set on this change, and luckily it wasn't too difficult to make the necessary changes to the novel. It's written in first person, so there aren't many times when Alek's appearance is actually described, and thankfully his parents are only mentioned in passing on a few occasions, so that wasn't too hard.

Overall, this change doesn't actually affect the story much at all, but I feel as though the change was worth making if it means PoCs get even just a little bit more representation in fantasy fiction (if/when it ever gets published, that is).
 
C

Chessie

Guest
I'm Hispanic, so when filling out paperwork I get to check the Latino box under ethnicity and Other under race. *rolls eyes*

But back OT, my all human story world has two main races in it, being modeled after 1700s Alaska when the Russians invaded the Natives. Well, there are people of other races but it's not so clear where they come from, since the land mass is bordered by an ocean and there are mysterious lands somewhere beyond that. So basically, I've opened it up to writing about whoever I think should be written about without any real explanation. Diversity of races isn't a big deal to me. I only want to tell a story.
 
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