GoT and ASoIaF Discussion Thread [SPOILER-FEST - READERS ONLY]

[stephenspower]

I don't have a problem with deaths happening on the show that didn't happen in the book. GRRM himself wondered about this and asked the showrunners why. They explained that GRRM introduces lots of characters, and these characters are played by actors, who sensibly wish to be paid. The show's budget, however, is unlimited, so when new characters arise others must fall.

 

[StoryTypewriter]

I don't have a problem with deaths happening on the show that didn't happen in the book. GRRM himself wondered about this and asked the showrunners why. They explained that GRRM introduces lots of characters, and these characters are played by actors, who sensibly wish to be paid. The show's budget, however, is unlimited, so when new characters arise others must fall.

It sounds like a pretty poor excuse. If HBO signs to convert to TV, a lengthy series of books, they should be able to keep it as close as possible. Maybe use less extras or get rid of nobody-cares secondary characters... surely there must be a better way!

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[stephenspower]

A show's a show and a book's a book. They have different demands. And what's so much fun about seeing an exact replica? I love Watchmen, but the movie left me cold because there was nothing new, nothing interesting, just the comic in motion. On top of that, trying to replicate the scale of the books would require 40-episode seasons. It's not like Shireen's going to live through the next book anyway.

 

[Ophiucha]

I don't necessarily mind changes, but Shireen's death was very undeserved and poorly written. It could work in the books, and since I think that is a very natural way to send Stannis past the point of no return, I suspect it will. But not because of Ramsay Snow or the battle for Winterfell. I see it as something that is a dire necessity, and further, something I can only see Stannis doing once he's at the brink of desperation or madness. I want it to be him at the Wall and see the Others and realize that they truly need the full power of the Lord of Light. Have Melisandre tell him that he could have that power if he makes the ultimate sacrifice, and make it clear that for some people that would be their life but for him, a man who loves his daughter so deeply that he would readily sacrifice himself to see her on the Iron Throne, that the ultimate sacrifice is Shireen. A sacrifice for Westeros.

Or at the very least, the writers could have made it a trade - put Melisandre in danger, have her on her deathbed, and she says "a life for a life" and he makes the final turn away from his values and fully commits himself to her by giving up the only thing he cared about more than her this whole time. Something like this has to be a turning point for the character, but here it's just a bit contradictory and like 'well, guess he really is just an asshole then'.

Also, I doubt a child actress who only appears in a couple of episodes a season for 5 minutes was really digging into their budget.

 

[X Equestris]

Supposedly Martin has said this will happen in the books. In a different manner, obviously, but it will according to what I'm hearing.

 

[Mindfire]

Yup.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/38z6uk/spoilers_all_psa_it_was_george_rr_martins_idea/

 

[stephenspower]

And in the books Stannis has been burning people for the Lord of Light all along, plus he's tried to kill two of Robt's heirs for Melisandre. The books build to Shireen's burning whereas on the show it's made into a manipulative cheat--but not as bad as Meryn the pedophile or Sansa's rape, both of which were totally gratuitous.

 

[Mindfire]

And in the books Stannis has been burning people for the Lord of Light all along, plus he's tried to kill two of Robt's heirs for Melisandre.

And of course we've never seen him do horrible things at her behest in the show. /sarcasm

They've been building up to this the whole time.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I don't necessarily mind changes, but ... poorly written.

This is where I am on changes. In fact, if you go back somewhere in this thread I'm like, "Yeah! Embrace the change!" and that was after killing off Ser Barristan. Then there was Sansa's inevitable wedding night, and yeah, it wasn't out of character for Ramsey. I tried not to hate that one, I really did. I thought, well, okay, so Jeyne Poole is just another victim but Sansa... we watched her grow up.

The Shireen death was a good scene as far as acting goes. I do admire that little girl for how she portrayed the character. That's really why I think this change was the worst yet. I felt nothing for the little girl screaming as she dies painfully. I was pulled out with a "Really? Ramsey comes up with a plan that's implausible for even a roadrunner cartoon, it actually works, and Stannis just breaks. Kill my daughter." Why doesn't Stannis just do this:

STANNIS: Hey, you know those twenty guys that someone must've seen because otherwise how would I know there are twenty of them? Let's follow them to Winterfell, since it's apparently very easy to travel to Winterfell from here.
MELISANDRE: Are you sure you don't want to try that burn your daughter thing? It sure would be shocking after you told her how you wouldn't give up on her.
STANNIS: I need another season or two to consider that. Well... I don't know, I'm just a military commander going after the throne as is my birthright, so maybe I'm oversimplifying things. I was just, I just, uh... *squeaky voice*
MELISANDRE: Should I show you a boob or...?
STANNIS: No! No... I'm good. *ahem* I was just thinking maybe Ramsey and the other nineteen guys left footprints, and we could follow them to Winterfell.
MELISANDRE: Right! Because in the book nobody knew where the hell we were and that's why we were all freezing and starving. But if twenty guys could easy find us, then Winterfell must be--
STANNIS & MELISANDRE: --right ****ing there!

Both are pointing to a path made of twenty sets of footprints as they speak. When they stop speaking, they kiss. Melisandre starts to undo her robe, but Stannis steps back wagging his finger, a military hand signal meaning "tsk, tsk."

STANNIS: Now is not the time for boobs. Now is the time for action! Non-sex-scene action! Davos!
DAVOS: Yes, your Truekingness!
STANNIS: Find me twenty-five even better men. We're going to prank their army and see if we can break Roose to the point he skins his son alive for shock value.
DAVOS: Oh, I don't know your Royal Manliness. Your men are spineless turds who jump when you ask how high. Best hope is to find thirty pretty good men among them.
STANNIS: Then find the prettiest good men you can, my fingerless Hand.
DAVOS: I have... some fingers.​

 

[stephenspower]

"Now is not the time for boobs.

This sentence has never spoken at HBO.

 

[ThinkerX]

I am still waiting for a fleet of highly ticked off Iron Born to drop anchor off Mereen with murder in their minds.

And dragon fire or no, it looks to me like Dany has a full scale rebellion on her hands in the city, and the Unsullied have taken some significant losses.

Hmmmm... going to try this from memory and a handful of You-tube clips:

Jamie, Brienne, and Sansa are all in unknown territory, show verses books.

Bran...?

I suspect Shireen's death was supposed to happen in Winds of Winter, and a battle is shaping up between Stannis and the Bolton's...

Dany's dragon flight corresponds to the end of Dance of Dragons. Books and show on a rough par.

Arya in the show is about where she was at the end of Dance.

Cersei's arc in the books as compared to the show match up fairly well. Does she do her 'walk of shame' in the finale?

Epic side trip to Hardhome not withstanding, Jon's arc is also in line with the books. Does he get stabbed next episode?

Tyrion appears to have moved into Winds of Winter territory by linking up with Dany...and that was an episode or two ago.

Jorah Mormont has 'walking dead man' written across his arm in grey letters. I wonder if he won't command some sort of lunatic rearguard action should Dany have to abandon Merleen under fire?

Sam...what happened to him? Don't remember seeing him in any You-tube clips from the last few episodes.

I'm wondering if the season finish will include the epilogue from Dance, where Vayrs decides there are just way too many officials cluttering up Kings Landing, and subtracts Kevan Lannister and the Grand Maester from those ranks.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Sam cheered up Jon Snow when he bemoaned his inability to save all of the wildlings.

 

[StoryTypewriter]

Sam cheered up Jon Snow when he bemoaned his inability to save all of the wildlings.

And Sam, in the last episodes, also save the girl (with dyrewolf assistance) at the wall from yet another rape, and enjoyed his "reward" while not travelling through seas carrying a moribund Maester and the wrong baby. I reckon he is the one getting the most benefit out of the book/show re-arrangement. And I don't mind that.

But I am also looking forward to the Iron born causing some trouble. I just hope Danny flight with the dragon doesn't ended up lost in the middle of nowhere (as that what I remember reading if memory serves me well).

Cersei's walk of shame should happen next if they want to keep up with the book. Thinking about it now.. it may not be so bad to wait for the Iron born as it could be a good beggining of the season episode once some of the other stories are more settled. What do you think?

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[StoryTypewriter]

Only 3 letters can describe what I feel after watching the finale: WTF!!

Looking forward to hear your thoughts... I need sometime to digest and re-read the last book

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[Legendary Sidekick]

WTF!!

My sentiments exactly.


The greatest WTF plot was Winterfell. Stannis burns his daughter and immediately this blows up in his face. I couldn't even feel satisfaction because Ramsey's 20 men were unbelievable, Stannis breaking to the point of sentencing his daughter to die screaming in agony was bullshit, and how could this supposedly seasoned warrior not see how men would desert him and he would lose the battle. 20 men kicked his ass and all of Winterfell knew he was coming.

Brienne's my favorite character, and I couldn't even feel good about her role. What was she doing by that wall? Just leaning on it for several weeks waiting for a candle to be lit? So if Sansa never lit the candle she was just going to wait in the forest for the rest of her life.

POD: 'Sup?
BRIENNE: Just watching Ramsey and Sansa take their nine children out for a walk.
POD: Think Ramsey cut off his sons' penises?
BRIENNE: No. I stopped thinking halfway through season 5.

Seriously, what WAS she thinking? Was she going to storm Winterfell by herself? What if she ran into Ramsey's 20 good men or Ramsey's army that's 5 times the size of Stannis' army?


Dorne? Poison lipstick. Big surprise.


The Wall? Pissy expression kid betrays Jon Snow.

JON: Really, Allister? My dead uncle isn't dead? This isn't a trick, is it?
ALLISTER: Nope.
JON: Phew--*ack*--heyyyyyy...
OLLIE: (pissily) For the Watch.
JON: Et tu, Ollie?


Arya's revenge? That was a fun scene. I think Meryn should have had a long, spiraling handlebar mustache to help emphasize that he's evil though. There were only three virgins getting whipped, and I think if he was whipping six virgins then the audience would understand that Arya's killing a very bad man. It was nice of Arya to tell the audience that she's not here to rescue little girls but to carry out a killing she planned back when the show followed the books.

I liked the scene for what is was, and that Arya can take a whipping in calm silence, but Meryn's already a baby-killer and an asshole. He doesn't need to have a disturbing secret revealed so the audience can enjoy watching him die horribly.


The walk of shame was the best scene. Why? Oh yeah, I know why. It's the only friggin' scene in the episode that was taken from the book. You could actually feel for Cersei, which was awesome. I think when I read that scene, I thought it was harsh, but there was a part of me that liked her being humbled. She failed to keep Margerie in captivity of The Faith and she had a lot of people, including her lesbian lover, tortured by that psycho who created Ser Robert Strong. With so much cut from the show (and some really had to be cut), Cersei was a little easier to empathize with. Standing tall and proud, then having her expression melt as the crowd was just awful to her was well played... and those holy warriors knocking people aside and giving a whore a bloody nose was cool.


Oh. I forgot to talk about Meereen. I'll do that now. "Meh." Done.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Oh, I forgot to mention, until I read a recap I thought Theon and Sansa were committing suicide. You know how Ramsey's crazy girlfriend fell and died? So I thought because Theon and Sansa had a longer drop, they would also die from the fall. I guess if you jump while holding hands, um...

Maybe they cut the scene before the bone-shattering landing so Theon and Sansa would land safely, just like last week how they cut the scene so Tyrion, Jorah, and Romance Novel Guy wouldn't be killed by all those Sons of the Harpy.

Oh... and they cut the scene before Brienne's sword could strike Stannis. Maybe next season premiere Brienne will run to Pod complaining,

BRIENNE: Stannis bit me in the face! He let me say my speech about sentencing him to death and really, he was just waiting for me to raise my blade so he could pounce. I mean... in his last words, he told me to do my duty and I did. Or would have if he stayed still.
POD: So his last words were a lie?
BRIENNE: He even lied about them being his last words, because when he bit me, he said "um."
POD: That's... super evil. I'll bet he hurts little girls too.
BRIENNE: Betting is evil, Pod.

 

[StoryTypewriter]

@Legendary Sidekick You Are Brilliant



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[Ophiucha]

I was watching e3 (a major video game event) instead of watching Game of Thrones, and midst all my joy and excitement over Nintendo and Fallout news, I see on my tumblr dashboard posts that just say "WTF", "omg, what????", 'd&d are the worst writers smdh', etc. that are tagged '#game of thrones'. I knew something had to have happened. So I watch the episode once all of my e3 stuff is over for the night, and I felt like every 10 minutes I had hit that point that everyone else had hit. There was a strange choice every few minutes, particularly with Stannis' story. And then I got to the end, and I just...

It's not even necessarily about the changes, for me, so much as the fact that they did adapt the first three books fairly faithfully - there were cuts, and S3/4 in particular began to took liberties, but they still weren't on their own path. That established a lot of plot threads, important characters, etc. that they really do need to follow through with in order to write a satisfying story. Instead, they're abandoning them left and right.

 

[Mindfire]

Oh, I forgot to mention, until I read a recap I thought Theon and Sansa were committing suicide. You know how Ramsey's crazy girlfriend fell and died? So I thought because Theon and Sansa had a longer drop, they would also die from the fall. I guess if you jump while holding hands, um...

The snow cushioned their fall. That much was obvious. And really, I think you're being unnecessarily hard on this season. I thought it was good. On par with season 4 I think. But I don't read the books, so I don't have that jaded, sneering perspective all book readers seem to have regarding the show. It wasn't blow-me-away awesome, but it wasn't terrible.

 

[Mindfire]

That established a lot of plot threads, important characters, etc. that they really do need to follow through with in order to write a satisfying story. Instead, they're abandoning them left and right.

Or maybe they're just cutting the fat? All the things people are criticizing as unnecessary deviations are just their way of truncating the story, speeding it along to ends that the books would have reached eventually in their own long-winded way. I'd bet this is especially true of Stannis's plot. If you wanted a perfectly accurate adaptation of the books (and why would you ever want that?) The show would probably need twice as many seasons as it's likely to get. Their goal is to finish in seven. Sacrifices must be made.