• Welcome to the Fantasy Writing Forums. Register Now to join us!

Accepting Critique

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
A while back, there was a popular thread on giving critique — a useful an interesting subject. I think, however, that the far more interesting and useful subject is accepting critique.

Anytime I receive any kind of substantive feedback, I’m left with the decision, “Do I accept or reject this advice?”

Sometimes, that’s an easy choice.

A. The advice is clearly correct. I think, “Doh! Why didn’t I see that? Cool deal.”
B. The advice is clearly incorrect:
a. My characters are in a cave in pitch blackness. A sentence clearly states that they light a torch. They see something. The commenter says, “How could they see in the dark?” Well, you missed the completely clear, unambiguous statement.
b. I hate present tense. Maybe I read your piece and say, “Good Lord, this sux. Use past tense.” Well, some people actually like present tense. You’re apparently one of them. Changing your tense to please me is idiotic.

Most of the time, though, the choice is anything but clear. Some thoughts:

1. Never accept critique out of obligation. In my way of thinking, an implied contract exists between you and the critiquer. The critiquer owes you exactly one thing — an honest opinion. In turn, you owe the critiquer exactly two things — your thanks for the comments and consideration of the opinion. You absolutely are not obligated to accept any part of the comments.
2. Consideration of the source of the critique can be problematic. Just because the critiquer is more experienced than you does not mean the comments are right for you. Just because the critiquer is less experienced than you does not mean that the comments aren’t exactly what you need. Just because the critiquer enjoys a style completely different than yours doesn’t mean that incorporating the comments wouldn’t enhance your writing.
3. Give each comment due consideration. Let’s say that a critiquer gives you 10 comments, and the first 9 fall into the WTF category. That doesn’t mean that the 10th might not be brilliant beyond belief and change the course of your writing.
4. Even when you reject a comment, keep it in the back of your mind. Maybe you just weren’t ready to hear the advice. One of the first things a critique partner ever told me was “get more inside your character’s head.” I had no idea what that meant at the time. Now, I think that being inside the character’s head is a key component of my writing. I’m still trying to master that.

None of the above answers the question of how you figure out if you should accept advice or not. Truthfully, I got nothin’. At the moment, I’m just kinda going with what feels right.

Any thoughts?

All I do know is that most of the leaps forward in my writing ability have come after receiving feedback.

Thanks.

Brian
 

Nimue

Auror
I like these principles! I agree with them pretty much entirely. Even if you have to sift through a lot of silt, you don't want to pass up the flakes of gold that will make your story better.

I could probably think of a proper list if I sat down and tried, but the most important aspect of critique to me is that you are getting reader impressions. Impressions can't be argued with--they are what they are. The reader is reacting to solely what's on the page, outside of all the context and imagery you have in your head. This is really valuable, and to me the primary purpose of critique. If you get suggestions or analysis as well that's great, but the most important thing is how your characters, plot, pace, voice, etc are coming across.

Whether or not the reader liked what they saw may or may not be valuable to you. It's a bit trickier, but there is a difference between "this isn't very good" and "this isn't for me." And equally, between "I like this!" and "this is really good." It's great that we can get feedback from fellow fantasy fans here, but even then there's a lot of different audiences you might be aiming for!

One last thing--A really common reaction to critique is to try and explain it away. But if the justifying/clarifying/elaborating fact isn't in the writing, then it doesn't have any bearing on the reader's experience. It's one thing if somebody missed something, as with the lighted torch example, and you can point to it on the page. (Though the corollary to that is that big events or facts or scene/POV changes shouldn't be easily overlooked. The reader should be able to miss a word or two without getting completely lost) But character motivation and background information necessary for the scenes to make sense should be embedded in there somewhere. If you as the author can come up with a thorough rationalization for your story, that's cool, but the next and most important step is getting that into the writing itself!
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
1) I rarely listen to style advice anymore. Occasionally, someone will say something poignant that makes me rethink how I write, but that's a rarity.

2) Nothing bothers me more than a critique partner who doesn't pay attention & read carefully. Fortunately, I have a stable of dependable and considerate partners (many of them Scribes). However, there are a couple partners in one of the two live critique groups I'm a member of that don't give their best effort. I don't even consider their advice & I've decided they'll get what they give in return. I'd leave the group entirely except for two other members who have proven valuable. They get my best effort.

In the end, I've done and received enough critiques to know, pretty quickly, if a partner sincerely wants to help improve my story. And, that's my only real requirement. Do you care enough to give your best & honest opinion? I could give a damn about experience levels, or if you have an English degree. A writer who started a month ago, but delivers an honest impression, is more valuable to me than a writer with 10 years under their belt if they don't truly care about my work.

If I agree to review another writer's work, they'll get my best, honest, & considerate opinion. We may not agree on all points, but my sincerity towards helping the writer improve will never be in doubt. I take them seriously. I expect the same in return.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Nimue,

I think also that there are different types of critiques (not meant to be a comprehensive list below):

1. Readers offering feedback.
2. Editors providing a professional service.
3. Authors helping each other.

In my post above (which I wasn't very clear on), I was mainly focused on 3. Though authors are readers and can provide useful input as to reader impression, their reactions are colored by too much knowledge of the strings being pulled.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
1) I rarely listen to style advice anymore. Occasionally, someone will say something poignant that makes me rethink how I write, but that's a rarity.

TAS,

I think you're at a different place in your writing than I am. Though I'm growing more confident, I'm still constantly reevaluating whether I'm writing as effective as I can be.

2) Nothing bothers me more than a critique partner who doesn't pay attention & read carefully.

I tend to think of different partners as having different strengths. This one guy who has helped me a ton has the memory of a gnat. He simply can't recall that I've already explained a plot point at length. That doesn't invalidate his greatness when it comes to helping me kick my descriptions up a notch or two.
 
Last edited:

Nimue

Auror
Nimue,

I think also that there are different types of critiques (not meant to be a comprehensive list below):

1. Readers offering feedback.
2. Editors providing a professional service.
3. Authors helping each other.

In my post above (which I wasn't very clear on), I was mainly focused on 3. Though authors are readers and can provide useful input as to reader impression, their reactions are colored by too much knowledge of the strings being pulled.
You're right that knowledge of writing can bias your reactions as a reader, to be sure. But I still find people's impressions as they read to be immensely helpful. Maybe there are writer tics that you can discount, like if someone starts frothing at the mouth over a specific sentence structure, but I don't give too much credence to the idea that if 70% of readers wouldn't notice something, then it doesn't matter. Might not be as important as the issues that everybody would object to, but it's still an issue. Maybe that's just me having difficulty separating my writing mind from my reading mind, though.

@TAS: I really wish I was that confident in my style. There certainly are suggestions that I know won't work for me, but I still think I need a lot of input and editing. Maybe ten years from now...
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
This one guy who has helped me a ton has the memory of a gnat. He simply can't recall that I've already explained a plot point at length. That doesn't invalidate his greatness when it comes to helping me kick my descriptions up a notch or two.
The sort I'm talking about is one who reads a piece of dialogue with two action tags in the paragraph, one before and one after the dialogue line, and then writes:

Who's speaking here?

That's one of multiple examples. At first, I thought there could be a clarity issue, but after continuing on in his review it was obvious they weren't reading carefully.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
@TAS: I really wish I was that confident in my style. There certainly are suggestions that I know won't work for me, but I still think I need a lot of input and editing. Maybe ten years from now...
There are, of course, exceptions.

Whenever I experiment with something new...like opening a story with a flash forward (something in planning now), or writing an unreliable narrator (a new technique for me) then I would listen more to style advice.

However, I feel I've got a good handle on voice, POV selection, description, and many other aspects of craft that go into style.

Now, that doesn't mean I don't want someone to say, "I think this description is overwrought", or "More description would help clarify this." It just means, I don't want people to tell me how to describe.

It hasn't always been that way. When I first started writing I listened to a ton of advice on craft. Through the years I've kept what aided the goals of my writing, & learned to ignore that which did not.

Take for example, the Paint a Thousand Words challenge. That challenge deals mainly with description. I'll offer pointers on descriptive technique, like saying "consider the use of metaphor to describe images or sensory information that is difficult to convey". Hopefully it'll help someone. But, I rarely, if ever, say "Do it like this." And, in the rare instance I would, it's because I felt the writer might benefit from a direct example, or I couldn't figure out how to address the point in another way.

Impressions are always valuable. The #1 value I find in critique is discovering issues with clarity. Anyone, at any experience level can assist with that, as long as they are considerate & read carefully.
 
Last edited:
I needed this. Just got crits back on another site and though I asked everyone to look at character development and style, 3 out of 5 felt the need to "correct" my use of adverbs. I like adverbs. I don't use them excessively but writing without them makes everything sound bland or like poorly written commercial fiction. Writing rules are more like guidelines. Just b/c Stephen King doesn't use adverbs doesn't mean they should be stricken from the English language.

There were a few good points here and there but most of it was useless. I had explained that I already wrote the book and am revising (not editing) but someone thought it'd be a good idea to tell me what should happen (for plot) in the next chapter. Not just any plot point though, the obvious climax. The MC is in prison and facing the death penalty, he's giving a final interview (a kind of Interview w a Vamp / Double Indemnity set up). The questions the readers should be asking are - what is this guy accused of and did he really do it? The guy suggests that I cut immediately to the crime in the next chapter rather than .... writing a book about the various crimes and events leading up to his arrest. I already said that it was a novel (not a short story). I'm not going to write an entirely new book for one dude. Why would anyone think that would be helpful? Ugh.
 
Last edited:

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
The sort I'm talking about is one who reads a piece of dialogue with two action tags in the paragraph, one before and one after the dialogue line, and then writes:

Who's speaking here?

That's one of multiple examples. At first, I thought there could be a clarity issue, but after continuing on in his review it was obvious they weren't reading carefully.


This is one of my pet peeves. I once had someone admit flat out they only skimmed my piece and continued to give me 'advice' and tell me what was not working for them. They were totally oblivious that wasn't cool. It totally cheesed me off. Especially when I can spend upwards of an hour per thoudsand words critiquing other's work. Let's just say they never got my best effort again.
 
C

Chessie

Guest
The only thing I have to add: Don't take crap personal! Ugh, this really aggravates me is when folks take the critiques as if I've just killed and eaten their firstborn.

Growing pains are a valuable part of the process. Thank the other person for the critique, take what applies, and strongly consider the 'negative' parts of the critique and see what you can learn from it. Be grateful!
 

Russ

Istar
There is some great advice in this thread. I have done a lot of critiquing with various levels of partners, almost all of it live, for quite some years now. I have some thoughts on how to make the process work well.

Most of the advice applies to the "grey area" stuff. When you hear something and you think it will immediately enhance your work and it excites you, that is easy to deal with. If you hear something and you are quite certain it is daft, or of no use to you, that is also easy to deal with. It is the stuff in the middle that gets you thinking, or debating with yourself that it takes some time and thought to reason through.

Firstly, know yourself as a writer. If you know your strengths and weaknesses as a writer, and feel very comfortable in some areas this will allow you to prioritize and weigh advice better. For instance if you are very happy with your dialogue, but have concerns about setting, you can pay more attention and be more open to the advice you get on your weaker areas rather than your stronger areas. It is not to say shut the door on any area, but if you are not sure about a comment, having a strong sense of yourself as a writer will allow you to make decisions on what to do with certain pieces of advice. Having that strong sense of yourself as a writer will also help you keep the work true to yourself, and prevent you from being pushed off of what the work really means to you by well meaning but assertive critiquers.

Hand in hand with that you have to know yourself as a person. Writing is a personal process, and critiques will (and I say should) cause an emotional reaction in you. You need to think about how to handle those reactions in a healthy and productive way before you do the critique sessions. IT will help you and the people you work with to get a great deal more out of the experience. For instance, I am a fighter and debater by training, trade and temperament. My initial reaction to a disagreement is to fight back. This doesn't work well in a critique session so now I always thinks things through many times when someone gives me a critique and asks me to respond to their comments. A critique session, to me, is not a chance to debate or defend my work, it is a chance for primarily me to learn. Most often I just thank people for the critique. IF I am expected to respond or answer questions I always thank the person who did the critique before I say anything else, I then talk about something they said I agree with, mention something perhaps I disagreed with, and then close with something else from their critique I agreed with again.

I also think it is important to know your critique partners as both people and writers if you can. People are people and some will be a better fit for you than others. If you know someone has a sharp tongue or exaggerates to make a point take that into account from what you hear. Some people have pet peeves or issues. That can be tough to evaluate, because while they might indeed be experts in the subject, they might be over focussed on something that will not be very important to the average reader.

Know what the people you critique with are good at. One chap I exchange with writes great plot, action and is a guru on pacing and dialogue, but his own books are not so great on character development. If I am uncertain I give his comments on pacing a lot more weight than his thoughts on showing emotion.

I do think one needs to consider the source of the advice. Many of the people I crit with make their living at writing and have done so for a long time. I take their advice seriously because I find it to be well considered and it comes from people who have applied the skill very successfully. It doesn't mean I take their words as gospel, but I certainly give their opinions more weight than those I hear from my unpublished peers.

In that vein I think it is important to remember critiquing is a two way street, and you should endeavour to find ways to provide value to the people who are being kind enough to critique your work. Most of the people I crit with are simply far better writers than I am with significantly more experience than I have. So what I do is bust my hump to become expert in areas where they need help or research done that I can get good at. I endevour to make sure that they get as much value as I can give them from the relationship.

Hope some of that is useful.

ed- almost forgot. Don't avoid critiquing with writers/readers outside your genre. It can bring whole new perspectives to your work. Their thoughts on your magic consistency may not be so great but they can be fantastic for romantic, or pacing or other elements.
 
Last edited:

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
I'd like to echo the know yourself, your critique partners, and be clear to them what you want from their critiques.

When I'm being critiqued, I go by the rule of thumb "Shut up and listen, because you might learn something." I did this when I joined a new critique group, and went in expecting that this was the norm. This lead to a amusing misunderstanding. I'm generally a quite guy, so when I'm silent, I'm really silent.

As I was getting critiqued, I was listening and jotting down notes on my laptop. I was so quiet and focused on what was being said, that the critiquers thought they might be hurting my feelings. They actually stopped to ask if I was OK and if they were being too hard on me.

They were used to at least a little back and forth, which I didn't expect. I had to reassure them there wasn't anything about my writing they could say that would hurt my feelings. I had to tell them the story of my first College writing class. I was the first person of the semester to have to stand up and read their piece to the class and have it critiqued. After having gone through that, it'll take something extraordinary to faze me even a little.
 
Hi,

I agree with most of what's been said but add one thing. A lot of this is about knowing yourself. Whether it's editing or critiquing, accepting it is a conversation between the author accepting what's being said and the one saying it. It's a two way street. And I think a trap for new authors is accepting the word of critique partners or editors as gospel. Some of it may be. But a lot of it's opinion and preference. And it is in the end their opinion against the writers. There is no right or wrong.

So my advice would be yes accept and welcome all critiques as thought they were gifts. They are or should be. But remember that you are the writer. It's your work. If someone doesn't like the way you say something, but it is still the way you want to say it, stick to your guns. That's your voice.

To give an example, my editor is constantly changing sentences on me and putting words like "this" in everywhere. It sounds right to her. But to me, "this" is almost always wrong. It's too formal, too immediate, and it jars. So I replace it with "that." Likewise if she decides a sentence should begin with "For" I'll change it to because. It's not my voice. It's hers and she wants to write more formally than me. But it's still valuable to me that she does it, because it makes me consider my sentence in detail.

Cheers, Greg.
 
I don't mind my stuff being ripped to shreds as long I'm actually getting advice that makes sense or at least something to chew on, even if I don't end up using it. I just ask that they at least try to be objective and keep their personal beliefs out of the discussion.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I just ask that they at least try to be objective and keep their personal beliefs out of the discussion.

Miskatonic,

I didn't understand this statement at all.

Unless you have access to a whole 'nother level of critiquers than the rest of us, you're going to be getting feedback from people who are not experts. All any of us can do is share our opinions, which are defined as both subjective and personal beliefs.
 

SugoiMe

Closed Account
The only thing I have to add: Don't take crap personal! Ugh, this really aggravates me is when folks take the critiques as if I've just killed and eaten their firstborn.

Growing pains are a valuable part of the process. Thank the other person for the critique, take what applies, and strongly consider the 'negative' parts of the critique and see what you can learn from it. Be grateful!

I don't think this bugs me so much as I used to be a much more sensitive person. But yeah, I agree that you need to develop some backbone if you're going to be able to take a critique. Just think: criticism on your work is going to make your writing better. And that awful knot feeling you get when people are down to earth about your work is just a fleeting moment that will pass. If you are an uptight person, read the comments, sit on it for a day or night to settle down, and start working through them the next day.

I remember getting a critique on my prologue once and the person tore it apart. Got pretty upset about it, but after sleeping on it, I was fine the next day and ready to fix that prologue. Emotions pass. You can move on.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
If you are an uptight person, read the comments, sit on it for a day or night to settle down, and start working through them the next day.

This is probably good advice whether you're "uptight" or not.
 
Miskatonic,

I didn't understand this statement at all.

Unless you have access to a whole 'nother level of critiquers than the rest of us, you're going to be getting feedback from people who are not experts. All any of us can do is share our opinions, which are defined as both subjective and personal beliefs.

I'm talking about people wanting me to change things because it doesn't line up with their personal politics or what not. I'm more focused on the technical side of things when I'm looking for critique, and any inconsistencies or lack of continuity.

Your sharing your opinions based on the art of writing, not whether or not you like the themes of the book because of personal preferences.
 

buyjupiter

Maester
These days I'm getting better critiques than I once did, mostly because my writing has improved immensely since I first started getting critiques back in 2013.

Nowadays, most of the critiques I'm getting from my peers are about word choice (because I get repetitive sometimes), timeline issues, and comma usage...and the stylistic comments have gone down to a bare minimum. But all of those things are specific and useful bits of feedback that are much easier to fix or not, based upon how I feel about that particular issue.

However, the comments I'm particularly paying attention to these days are the ones coming from editors in my rejection letters. The first time I got direct feedback about my story it was a mushy middle problem, nothing more specific than that--which could mean anything. I'm still working on tightening up that piece.

But the last piece of feedback I got was a "buried lead" problem--and that was both true (I'd added on some padding to the beginning of the story to fix the "super abrupt opening" issue I'd had with it) and super easy to fix, just chop off the first two pages and resubmit that baby.

My feeling about critiques is this: if someone can explicitly and clearly state what the issue is (i.e. this word might be better than this other word) then I'm much more likely to listen to that feedback. If it's a vague statement, or a "I didn't like [x]", I'll consider it (and much more honestly if it comes from a source that has provided reliable feedback in the past), but I generally speaking won't do much to change it (if anything) unless I get that same comment from multiple sources.
 
Top