Reconsidering my Protagonist's Race

[cupiscent]

It's somewhat disingenuous to say "the reader is reading it wrong!" if you haven't made a genuine and sincere effort to represent accurately on the page what the reader should be reading.

It's not respectful to say "I'll do as I like with your culture regardless of what your culture wishes". Especially not when you are on the side with more power in the exchange. There are also ways to comment on a culture, even critically, while still respecting, understanding and considering context and reasoning within a culture. Indeed, it's less valid criticism if it doesn't consider context.

And if a culture in a fantasy world is recognisable - and especially if the author knows they are borrowing from real-world cultures - then a little consideration of whether you're being respectful and consistent or just using another culture as a buffet of exoticness is called for.

I am not saying don't do it. But showing consideration and respect is always polite.

 

[Steerpike]

It's somewhat disingenuous to say "the reader is reading it wrong!" if you haven't made a genuine and sincere effort to represent accurately on the page what the reader should be reading.

I don't think this is necessarily true at all. Readers are all different. Do I have to be so explicit so that even the most thick amongst them are clear on what is going on? If I'm subtle, and a number of readers miss it, does that mean I was wrong to be subtle? I don't think so. If I decide to write a story that has some kind of social message to it (which won't necessarily be true of everything), I'll write it in a way that best conforms to my vision of the story and how I want things to unfold. If some readers don't follow along, so be it.

It's not respectful to say "I'll do as I like with your culture regardless of what your culture wishes". Especially not when you are on the side with more power in the exchange.

I don't think this is something an author of fantasy works should give much consideration to. If you're writing non-fiction about a culture, then sure, you may want to give consideration to what the culture thinks (although you also may not). When I'm writing a fictional story in a made up universe, I'm not writing about any culture on earth. I may pick and choose bits of real culture for flavor or even for substance, but in the end the culture is still a made-up culture, not the real world culture. I don't feel any duty or obligation to the thoughts of a real-world culture on what my fictional, invented culture is like. People looking that hard for something to be offended about are going to find it in a lot of places where it isn't warranted.

There are also ways to comment on a culture, even critically, while still respecting, understanding and considering context and reasoning within a culture. Indeed, it's less valid criticism if it doesn't consider context.

If the story is meant to be a critique, then presumably one considers all sides of issues in forming the critique. What the culture itself thinks of the end product shouldn't influence the outcome (to get back to your 'what the culture wishes' comment). I should also note that 'what the culture wishes' is largely a fictitious statement, since cultures of generally made up of individuals with varying viewpoints.

And if a culture in a fantasy world is recognisable - and especially if the author knows they are borrowing from real-world cultures - then a little consideration of whether you're being respectful and consistent or just using another culture as a buffet of exoticness is called for.

Called for by whom? If I want to use a culture from human history as just a bit of flavor for a made-up fantasy culture there is nothing wrong with that. The situation is different if I'm actually writing non-fiction, or a story set in the real world that is meant to be a portrayal of a culture. But in a fantasy world, with a wholly invented culture? Not necessary. I have a fantasy culture that is partly influenced by the Maya. There are also a lot of aspects of the fantasy culture that I made up, and other aspects that are linked to other real-world cultures over history. A reader would be foolish to assume that I'm making commentary about the Maya, or that I'm portraying the fantasy culture as an accurate representation of Mayan culture. I'm not.

As for consistency - that's an odd admonition to fantasy writers. My culture is completely made up. As long as it is internally-consistent, that's all that is called for. The fact that it draws on real-world culture, whether for flavor or substance, doesn't mean any of it has to be consistent with the real world culture. Because, again, it is not that culture I'm writing about. It's a made-up one that I've given flavor or expanded on by using bits of real human history and culture. Nothing wrong with that.

This, to me, is the underlying problem with the idea of cultural misappropriation when it comes to fiction writing. At some point, the underlying thought processes become unreasonable. To me, a reader who is reading a fantasy or science fiction story set in an entirely invented universe and takes a fictional culture to be a stand-in for a real world culture (unless the author makes it clear that is the intent), with all of the expectations and responsibilities attendant to such a use, isn't being reasonable in their reading of the work. I can't write my works to meet the expectations of unreasonable readers, and the more a writer tries to do something like that they more they tangle themselves up in knots instead of just writing a good story.

Again, if you're writing something that is meant to reflect on a real world culture, or is meant to be about them, and is meant to be as accurate a portrayal of the culture as possible, then everything changes - your duties as an author are entirely different. But if you want to snatch pieces of culture here and there to add flavor, backstory, ritual, mythology, or whatever else you want, to a made up culture in a made up world, there's nothing wrong with that, and it is counterproductive for authors to second-guess their vision of a story based on those kinds of considerations.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

One of the issues I have with this idea of cultural appropriation is the confinement or limitations externally placed on writers. Perhaps I'm understanding it wrong, but it seems counter to the desire for greater diversity in fiction. Or, should I say, potentially harmful to that goal depending on how the idea is approached.

As Steerpike said above, we're talking about fantasy worlds strictly. I'd agree that in a piece which represents a real, living culture (or even historic, I suppose) the writer has a responsibility to accurately portray said culture, just the same as they do to portray members of that culture as distinct individuals and not some short-sighted stereotype. But, if someone is telling me, "Don't use the Chinese as a source of inspiration for a fantasy culture, or character, because that's appropriation", what does that leave me as a writer? That leaves my own culture. What I've grown up in, or only those I've had immersive living experience within.

So, if I follow that path, then my stories may not be as diverse, at least in terms of race and culture.

I don't disagree that writers should pull ideas from cultures respectfully. But, this notion that they're off limits for anyone on the outside-looking-in is absurd. Further, within any culture there will be multiple individual viewpoints on just about any topic you can think of. There may be a common shared belief system, but in the writing of an individual character, that character may not adhere to that belief. Hell, they may even mock that belief. Is that wrong? It's a character's outlook, not a dissertation of some stereotypical Chinese outlook toward religion or government.

These are the types of arguments which may discourage writers from employing more diversity. We should be careful when our thinking potentially confines writers, limits their acceptable choices, or makes the telling of diverse stories daunting.

 

[Devor]

It's a character's outlook, not a dissertation of some stereotypical Chinese outlook toward religion or government.

I want to expand on this point.

As an outsider to Asian, African and Middle Eastern cultures, I just don't have much to say about them. At least, nothing so subtle and poignant as to write a novel's themes about. In so much as I might have a commentary to make, it would be about aspects of my own culture, and those that I'm immersed in.

Sometimes the contrast of a different culture is the best way to do that.

I mean to be respectful of the cultures I use. But part of writing fantasy comes the ability to change things about those fantasy cultures from their real world counterparts in order to better serve the story's needs and themes. But if I'm changing something about an East Asian culture, it's not because I mean to insult East Asia. It would be because I want to make a point about the attitudes of the U.S.

It's unfortunate if people would see it otherwise. But I don't see that as being enough of a reason to set that aside - it's one of the greatest tools that comes with writing fantasy.

 

[Mythopoet]

It's one thing if your work involves an actual real culture that people in this world actually live in right now. If that's the case then yes, you should expend every reasonable effort to get the culture right.

However, we're fantasy writers here or at least spec fic writers. Most of us are not actually writing about any real world cultures. Nor are any of our characters from any actual real world cultures. If we create fantasy cultures inspired by real world cultures, those cultures are NOT in any way shape or form representative of the real world cultures. If we have characters that come from fantasy cultures inspired by real world cultures, those characters are NOT representative of people from the real world culture. But there seems to be a real problem with people reading imaginary world fantasy and seeing, for example, a culture based on China and just assuming that EVERYTHING about the fantasy culture is therefore representative of China. It's not. It's just NOT. The same thing happens when fantasy authors have a character with brown skin and people automatically assume that character and characters like them are representative of black people from our real world. People need to stop assuming things like that. It's sloppy thinking.

Fantasy writers should be able to take inspiration from any real world culture and give their characters any skin color or gender or orientation without having to take on the responsibility of representing everything about that culture, skin color, gender or orientation as it exists in the real world. If we keep putting that kind of responsibility on writers, especially those who are writing about completely different worlds, then we shouldn't be surprised when those writers decide it's just not worth it to try to write with any kind of diversity.

 

[Aspasia]

When I started this project, I used to be very interested in Indian culture, food and clothing and wished to travel there if I got the chance but I’ve realised now that this kind of interest is not appropriate and I’ve given up on those travel plans as well.

To be quite honest, as a POC myself, I think anyone who indicated to you that this is "not appropriate" is completely wrong. And I'm from a culture that is frequently treated like an amusing trinket to exotify things without understanding.

(If my tone sounds a little sharp, know that it's not at you, it's at the people who indicated this perfectly acceptable, and even good, interest in another culture is inappropriate)

There's absolutely nothing wrong in being interested in another culture. There is absolutely nothing wrong in travelling to another country that is steeped in that culture. "Cultural appropriation" is completely different from interest in a culture. Interest in a culture is trying to understand it, enjoying it, experiencing the way other people live, act, and think. Appropriation is not giving a s**t about that culture, its history, and using its elements for some superficial purpose. Wearing figures of Hindu gods as jewelry, without even knowing what those gods are and what those figures mean, just because you think it's exotic and fashionable, is appropriation. Wearing an Indian outfit given to you by a friend is not appropriation. I'm extremely sad that you feel you had to give up an interest in another culture because you felt it wasn't appropriate--whatever advice was given to you has had the opposite effect of opening doors for people and letting cultures understand one another. Fetishism, exoticism--those are not okay. But curiosity and interest from a place of respect and desire to understand, and learn--this is good.

In the context of writing, I feel it is difficult, especially in fantasy, to have cultural appropriation at all. Real-world story? Okay, if you didn't research and made your POC a pure stereotype, people will be legitimately pissed.

In fantasy, we don't even set our stories on the real world usually. If you're writing alternate histories (where we're supposed to be on an alternate Earth, with alternate Earth cultures) and you're lazy about your research, that's bad. If you're writing pure fantasy not set on Earth, and want an exotic culture and think "hey China, that's exotic, let me just stick a few Chinese stereotypes in this fantasy culture and call it totallyNotChina"--that's bad too (and lazy). Note: stereotypes.

If you want to base a fantasy culture on a real-world culture, of course that's perfectly fine. If it happens to resemble a culture that is not your own--again, perfectly fine. If the only reason it "resembles" that culture is because it is full of stereotypes--this is what people object to. If there's something sacred in that culture (and your fantasy culture is clearly and intentionally based on that culture) and you treat it like s**t just because you don't understand or don't care--this isn't good either.

I've read books set in, and about my cultural background, written by white people and had absolutely no issues with them, because they researched. They listened. They didn't reduce my rich background to a handful of funny off-putting jokes and overemphasized stereotypical nonsense. Yes, I've read the opposite too, and they sucked.

I would encourage you to keep your POC protagonist. Research, understand, and be thoughtful that culture. Think about your own culture--what would you hate someone else to say about it, or treat it? I'm not saying make it all roses and perfume, but do enough research that you know where the lines are and how not to step on them. I would say it's very good to have people of the culture you wish to represent read over your story.

Diversity/race/ethnicity in books and writing is a tricky as hell topic because you don't know where everyone's coming from, how much they understand, and what they have experienced. But being afraid to ask, or to step out of your box, is more harmful than taking the plunge. It's good that people are thinking about POC in literature now. But the response to realizing a problematic situation, and not knowing if you can/should fix it, should not be silence. We're not trinkets, but we're not glass vases either. I want to encourage writers to step out of their comfort zone--that's the only way we'll see more diverse literature. Everyone will mess up, but by talking, researching, and understanding you can improve it, and grow as a writer. And note: There's absolutely nothing wrong with writing a pure European-based fantasy/story/whatever. You are the writer. Wanting to see more diverse literature != telling writers not to write what they're familiar/interested/comfortable with.

This is probably rather long and involved for your question, but I've been seeing this topic come up a lot over the internet lately. Best of luck with your story.

 

[Ben.D]

I agree with the majority replying; write the story you want to write with the setting and characters you picture. Changing any aspect of the story for any reasons outside of the story itself would make it inauthentic, which generally translates into weaker writing. On the cultural appropriation note I would argue that completely avoiding a main character as a poc is worse than misrepresenting them as whitewashing the story avoids the issue all together, while having their culture in the story, even if the representation of it could be controversial will lead to discussions and bring it to the forefront. I'd say just be ready to discuss and talk about the reasons for your characters race and culture and don't change it just to avoid controversy, controversy is good it leads to change.

 

[StoryTypewriter]

I went recently to a fantasy writing convention.. one of the lectures was about writing history. The three ladies agreed that it can cause more trouble than not to use a minority's POV without talking to them, ask permission and do a thorough research (they were specifically talking about Aboroginal Australians but they insisted it applied to any minority).

As an European myself, I can tell you that European does not necessaliry mean white. (I am hispanic myself with olive skin for instance). The borders are open and people can migrate freely. Don't think in terms of stereotyping, go a bit further and write it as it feels right. Thats what I would do.

Ps you should travel to India. That kind of interest is healthy and you could be surprised with the results. This is coming from an Australia lover that ended up living in the country of her dreams

Sent from my SM-G360G using Tapatalk

 

[Steerpike]

In the context of writing, I feel it is difficult, especially in fantasy, to have cultural appropriation at all. Real-world story? Okay, if you didn't research and made your POC a pure stereotype, people will be legitimately pissed.

Yep. I said something similar above with respect to the writing of fantasy literature.

I'm not sure about the jewelry examples, and the like. I know non-Christians who wear crosses, or wear clothing with specific crosses like the Maltese Cross without knowing anything about its history. The latter is even used in company logos. People wear jewelry with Celtic knots without knowing anything about the cultural origin or meaning of them. This sort of ornamental expression makes its way across various societies and people see them and make use of them in their own way.

I'm not sure in what way a culture can or should be said to 'own' ornamentation, or to control it in some way such that it is wrong for others not of that culture to use it. The rules of the ornamentation, and the sanctity, meaning, restrictions, and the like, are all well and good within the context of the culture itself, and if those within the culture choose to adhere to such things with regard to their symbols then that seems to me to be legitimately left to them to decide. But to people outside that culture, there's no more reason why they should be bound to the conceptions and practices of the culture with regard to ornamentation than anything else that culture does.

 

[Amanita]

Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.
The general tendency seems to be clear and agree with the choice I'm more drawn to emotionally. I'll keep my protagonist the way she is and I'll try to gather as much information as possible.
I'll probably take a break with this story to sort out a few things before I'll go back to the actual writing. As far as I've gathered, the white-Mentor-thing seemed to look most problematic to you among the things I've shared so far. Unfortunately, this man is quite important for the plot and he can't be a viewpoint character himself because that would give too much away. I'll definitely have to think about that.
So far, I have a black female character whose position and element would enable her to be the MC's mentor. A black character helping out the protagonist is considered problematic as well though but creating a character of the protagonist's race who happens to be at the right place in this other country feels somewhat artificial at the moment. Maybe I'll come up with a good reason for this with some thought though.

And maybe I better shouldn't apply every angry internet post on this subject to myself without knowing the entire context. Usually, in the cases where people have actually been offended by their portrayal in media, I did understand why and it wasn't as hard as it seems to be in abstract discussions.

 

[Gryphos]

As far as I've gathered, the white-Mentor-thing seemed to look most problematic to you among the things I've shared so far. Unfortunately, this man is quite important for the plot and he can't be a viewpoint character himself because that would give too much away.

One simple solution to the issue of the white mentor is to simply make him not white. I understand that this change might be somewhat tricky if you've already worked out a whole bunch of his backstory, but it's something to consider anyhoo.

A black character helping out the protagonist is considered problematic as well though...

Is it? I have never heard it said in any similar scenario that this would be problematic.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Why is it wrong to have a POC character with a white mentor?

 

[Gryphos]

Why is it wrong to have a POC character with a white mentor?

Like all things in this topic, there are no clear cut rules or borders between right and wrong. Having a white mentor to a POC MC isn't 'wrong', but it can be seen by some as subtly racist and colonial in its possible analogous links to real world racist colonial attitudes ('the white man's burden, etc.).

 

[Steerpike]

Like all things in this topic, there are no clear cut rules or borders between right and wrong. Having a white mentor to a POC MC isn't 'wrong', but it can be seen by some as subtly racist and colonial in its possible analogous links to real world racist colonial attitudes ('the white man's burden, etc.).

The question is, how much of that is real and how much is the reader's own baggage? If you have a white mentor, that's not a problem. If you have a book where all of the smart, capable characters are white, and people of color are all portrayed as lesser than them, needing to be saved or taught, or whatever, then you may have a problem.

 

[Trick]

Having a white mentor to a POC MC isn't 'wrong', but it can be seen by some as subtly racist

I have no time for this kind of reader. Or this kind of person in general. If you want to find an insult, you will. It's one thing for an author to do their best in avoiding racially offensive things, it's great; but having a POC in a largely white country work with a white mentor is just statistically plausible. Plus, the OP said that the MC fled her own country for some pretty good reasons, so no one should think that it was to go somewhere where there were white people who could teach her. That's a broken inference of the worst kind and I'd rather people with that mindset just not read my work.

 

[Steerpike]

The problem is, there is legitimately problematic material out there where you really can see racial bias and other issues, and on the other hand there are plenty of people who are looking to find offense in even the smallest of things they don't personally like.

To me, it is very difficult to point to a single, isolated aspect of a work (like a white mentor) and say it's a problem. That's a simply, lazy analysis. You have to look at it in the context of the work as a whole, and how it is handled, and maybe even in the greater context of the genre.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

The question is, how much of that is real and how much is the reader's own baggage? If you have a white mentor, that's not a problem. If you have a book where all of the smart, capable characters are white, and people of color are all portrayed as lesser than them, needing to be saved or taught, or whatever, then you may have a problem.

Well said. As with everything in writing, it's all about execution.

Let's talk hypotheticals & Star Wars for a moment. Bear with me....

For those that don't know, the next series of films will have a POC in the main protagonist role, played by John Boyega. Think this generation's Luke Skywalker.

I know, no one has seen it yet (which is why I said hypothetical above). However, that is the strong indication for the coming movies.

So if Luke is John Boyega's mentor that may be a great thing! It all depends on how it is handled. Does the character have his own agency? Is he treated as an individual?

Especially in a fantasy setting, we can't restrict ourselves to thinking like, "POC characters must have POC mentors, because colonial viewpoint." That may not even exist in the fantasy world.

It's something to think about, sure. I'll grant you that. However, it can easily be taken too far.

To the OP:
If having a white mentor for a POC protagonist fits the needs of your world and story, there's nothing wrong with it. It all just depends on execution, but people will moan no matter what you do. So...stay true to your story & vision.

 

[Steerpike]

@T.Allen.Smith:

I think you're exactly right, and the point you made well above and I want to reiterate is that it makes no sense take bring the baggage of real world race history and colonialism and impose it on a fantasy world with such vastly different history from our own that those issues simply don't exist at all, or don't exist to an appreciable degree.

If you want to create a history for your fantasy world where those things are relevant and explore them through your story, that's great. But imposing them onto a setting where they make no sense in the context of the setting itself is a mistake.

 

[Amanita]

I did consider making the mentor non-white of course but I think this would do more harm than good. He is a very ruthless businessman who has been involved in a massacre committed against another (also white majority)-country. (The protag finding out about this hushed up situation was supposed to be one of the plot points.) A survivor of this event is another view-point character. (Their animosity is due to some amount of ethnical hatred but mainly different political and economic systems, different moral beliefs and power.)
Making one of the few powerful PoCs in a white majority-country act like that would open another can of worms.
They don't have any sort of "I'm helping you because of the goodness of my heart"-relationship either and she neither likes him very much nor ever truly trusts him.
This also means that changing to another mentor would strongly reduce the amount of conflicts she's facing which wouldn't necessarily be good from a plot POV. A few major changes would definitely be necessary.

 

[Gryphos]

To me, it is very difficult to point to a single, isolated aspect of a work (like a white mentor) and say it's a problem. That's a simply, lazy analysis. You have to look at it in the context of the work as a whole, and how it is handled, and maybe even in the greater context of the genre.

This, I think, is the key thing. Individual stories, unless they're really overtly racist and stuff, don't signify anything. Having a white mentor is completely fine. However, imagine if every single story always had a white mentor. That has some definitely questionable implications. I'm not saying that's the case, just using it as an example of how one must consider the wider social context a story is being written in.

However much we would like to try, you cannot separate fiction from the social environment it is created and consumed in.