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What is Important?

PaulineMRoss

Inkling
There's a continuum along which self-published authors seem to fall. Some discrete points along the continuum:
1. You're happy enough putting out complete dreck, as long as you think you can make a few bucks off it;

I don't think anyone thinks they're putting out complete dreck. On the contrary, there are a lot of beginner authors who think they've written a masterpiece and are shocked at complaints about typos, poor grammar, cardboard characters, plot holes and the like. I've come across a LOT of self-pubbers who ended up pulling their early work or extensively revising, because they didn't have a clue at first. That's (in my view) the biggest problem with self-pubbing - that authors do their learning in public view.

But I don't think anyone in this forum falls into the 'complete dreck' category.

2. You're not going to publish something unless you're personally satisfied that it is top-notch quality and representative of your art, and you'd rather do that and sell less than do #1.

And on what criteria do you measure what is 'top-notch quality and representative of your art'? You can decide not to publish until a work meets your own quality standards, sure, but (as I mentioned in point 1, above) many authors are self-deluded about their own ability. Getting an outside opinion is better - whether by submitting to agents/publishers, or putting the work through a critique group or beta reading.

3. Somewhere in the middle, where you decide a certain minimum level of quality is necessary before you're comfortable putting a work out there, but at some point you hit a point where even if it could be better it's "good enough."

Again, how are you measuring 'better'? See, there's a law of diminishing returns. With a first draft, there's a huge amount of improvement possible, usually. By the time you get to a third or fourth draft, not so much. Each iteration makes less difference to the finished work. You can go on tinkering for ever, and some people do, and that's fine. But if you want to publish eventually, there comes a point where each incremental improvement is less and less visible to a reader. And if you have a commercial objective in mind (which, after all, is the point of this thread), then endlessly tinkering is not cost effective. There comes a point when the time invested in another editing pass won't be rewarded by greater sales. That's when you publish.
 
I don't think anyone thinks they're putting out complete dreck. On the contrary, there are a lot of beginner authors who think they've written a masterpiece and are shocked at complaints about typos, poor grammar, cardboard characters, plot holes and the like. I've come across a LOT of self-pubbers who ended up pulling their early work or extensively revising, because they didn't have a clue at first. That's (in my view) the biggest problem with self-pubbing - that authors do their learning in public view.

But I don't think anyone in this forum falls into the 'complete dreck' category.



And on what criteria do you measure what is 'top-notch quality and representative of your art'? You can decide not to publish until a work meets your own quality standards, sure, but (as I mentioned in point 1, above) many authors are self-deluded about their own ability. Getting an outside opinion is better - whether by submitting to agents/publishers, or putting the work through a critique group or beta reading.



Again, how are you measuring 'better'? See, there's a law of diminishing returns. With a first draft, there's a huge amount of improvement possible, usually. By the time you get to a third or fourth draft, not so much. Each iteration makes less difference to the finished work. You can go on tinkering for ever, and some people do, and that's fine. But if you want to publish eventually, there comes a point where each incremental improvement is less and less visible to a reader. And if you have a commercial objective in mind (which, after all, is the point of this thread), then endlessly tinkering is not cost effective. There comes a point when the time invested in another editing pass won't be rewarded by greater sales. That's when you publish.
I'm not going to offer remarks on self-delusion in writing because it is an expressive art for one and often used to put things in front of you by journaling or poetry; etc. It is second nature to doing a task that there are guidelines. From an early age learning writing we know this and the development of skill is aspirational. Every aspiration is influenced and often times we invest ourselves in our literature or put ourselves into the shoes of our characters. That's work not dreck. And to the person who is comfortable just trying to turn a buck there isn't anything actually wrong with that but the only self-deluded misconception in doing anything is believing you can promote something unpresentable. Doing that shows levels of energy and many artists find themselves burned out or blocked. The point where such efforts become a decision has nothing to do with writing whatsoever. That's why I try to mix things up in my writing from points of view to pace, ambiance, everything. Has to be a fruitbowl right?


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I guess I mean the starting point isn't the finish line and who crosses that is determined by the race. It's a job.

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I don't think anyone thinks they're putting out complete dreck. On the contrary, there are a lot of beginner authors who think they've written a masterpiece and are shocked at complaints about typos, poor grammar, cardboard characters, plot holes and the like. I've come across a LOT of self-pubbers who ended up pulling their early work or extensively revising, because they didn't have a clue at first. That's (in my view) the biggest problem with self-pubbing - that authors do their learning in public view.

But I don't think anyone in this forum falls into the 'complete dreck' category.

This was the thing that shocked me most when self-published novels began proliferating on Amazon. As a reader, to go from one expected standard for the books appearing there to its near-polar opposite was a surprise–and a great education. I would imagine that many consumers learned the hard lesson and are now far more likely to read through reviews and to be influenced by the star ratings for books before taking the leap.

Concurrently, false reviews also seemed to appear early with a self-pubbed novel's inclusion on Amazon, overrating many novels that were complete dreck. (Such reviews had been appearing for non-book items on Amazon already, although many of those items would receive far more reviews than the random self-pubbed books, and so there wasn't as much bias in the overall rating.) I believe that many consumers became far more discerning as a result, learning to spot those cases and, often, to dismiss some glowing reviews while preferring the 3- or 4-star reviews (or worse) as a guide for whatever problems a book might have. I know this is what I do.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
This was the thing that shocked me most when self-published novels began proliferating on Amazon. As a reader, to go from one expected standard for the books appearing there to its near-polar opposite was a surprise—and a great education. I would imagine that many consumers learned the hard lesson and are now far more likely to read through reviews and to be influenced by the star ratings for books before taking the leap.

I think you really have a spectrum of readers:

Group 1 - These readers aren't all that picky about some of the stuff that you and I feel strongly about. They simply don't care much at all about the writing prowess of the author as long as the author can deliver page turning or an emotional response or whatever it is that they are looking for. Note that this people are not stupid for not caring about the stuff that you and I care about; they simply have different tastes. Calling them dumb for not caring about plot inconsistencies is like calling people who like strawberry ice cream stupid because you like vanilla.

Group 2 - These readers want only the quality produced by traditionally published authors. For the most part, they do not even consider purchasing indie works unless those works come highly recommended from a trusted source.

Group 3 - These readers are cognizant that they're paying a lower price for a product less polished than the Big 5 puts out. They're careful about their purchases - reading reviews and studying the sample first - but they're willing to take a chance due to the value proposition.

As an indie author, I have no shot at Group 2. However, Groups 1 and 3 make up such a significant market that I don't have to sell that that other group.
 

Russ

Istar
Group 1 - These readers aren't all that picky about some of the stuff that you and I feel strongly about. They simply don't care much at all about the writing prowess of the author as long as the author can deliver page turning or an emotional response or whatever it is that they are looking for. Note that this people are not stupid for not caring about the stuff that you and I care about; they simply have different tastes. Calling them dumb for not caring about plot inconsistencies is like calling people who like strawberry ice cream stupid because you like vanilla.

I think your logic breaks down in here. Writing prowess is the ability to deliver emotional responses and driving plots among other things, especially immersion.

Plot inconsistencies can harm immersion and lower the reading experience for all readers and thus should be eliminated.
 
Group 1 - These readers aren't all that picky about some of the stuff that you and I feel strongly about. They simply don't care much at all about the writing prowess of the author as long as the author can deliver page turning or an emotional response or whatever it is that they are looking for. Note that this people are not stupid for not caring about the stuff that you and I care about; they simply have different tastes. Calling them dumb for not caring about plot inconsistencies is like calling people who like strawberry ice cream stupid because you like vanilla.

I was about to comment on this and noticed that Russ had beat me to it.

The problem with your description of these readers is that, as described, they can't easily be targeted. I think it might be fair to say that any product imaginable, no matter how pedestrian, how odd, how disgusting, how ugly, how seemingly useless, will probably be liked by someone and, if the price is right, can be sold to someone. The question is whether a large enough group of someones exist for any given product put on the market for the producer to turn a nice profit. For a given book, are there enough buyers who like its subject matter, who don't really care much about plot inconsistencies, good characterization, anachronistic dialogue, and so forth, to buy it? Note: One reader might not care about plot inconsistencies but very much care about good characterization; another might not care about either of those things but really hate anachronistic dialogue; yet a third might not care about any of those things but be really turned off by a gay character—or by a macho Everyman character, or an extremely angst-riddled character, or....The list goes on.

And then there is what Russ said.

Edit: Ah, I forgot to add something. My earlier comment, quoted by you, concerned the process readers take when deciding to buy a book for the first time—not whether they like the book once they have it. Generally I meant to address some of the early barriers. But these readers you highlight, even if they might like a book for reasons you've mentioned, might not even buy it in the first place to enjoy that story while not noticing plot inconsistencies, etc.
 
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Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
I'm wondering…. and this is the emotional/councillor side of myself coming through…

I wonder if, Foster, you are not so compelled to convince us, as you are to convince yourself. I think you worked really hard on your novel. Over four years I heard you say? That is a lot. That is a lot of time and effort and you should be really proud of yourself. I wonder, if perhaps Rise is not getting the reviews you had hoped for and this is stressing you out a bit? You need to know that it will still be OK? That it will still sell and you can still be successful even though it isn't perfect?

I'm wondering now, if perhaps your Beta readers had some comments about Repulsive that have upset you, and again you are hoping to convince yourself that it is OK, and that there are others out there that will buy it and read it.

You have forked out a lot of money on editors, cover artists, marketing etc, and I'm wondering if perhaps you are a little concerned about recouping those costs? You are hoping that if you work really, really hard producing lots of product than you will see some return?

This is sort of what it sounds like to me. This endless post that has gone on and on and on is sounding to me like you are hoping someone will tell you it is going to be OK.

*End councillor mode now.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I think your logic breaks down in here. Writing prowess is the ability to deliver emotional responses and driving plots among other things, especially immersion.

Plot inconsistencies can harm immersion and lower the reading experience for all readers and thus should be eliminated.

There is no breakdown in logic.

Why is it so hard to accept that some readers simply don't care all that much about plot inconsistencies?

As authors, we question everything - motivations, world building, context. Everything.

A lot of readers are simply along for the ride, ready to be led wherever the author takes them. Even if they do notice inconsistencies, they shrug and move on.

What I'm saying is: your best bet to succeed as an author is to focus on what your readers want. If your readers tell you, "Hey, I'm not going to buy your next book because I didn't like this plot inconsistency" you need to fix it. I really don't think, however, that's anywhere close to the top of your list of things you need to worry about.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
The problem with your description of these readers is that, as described, they can't easily be targeted.

Huh? Where the heck do you get that idea?

There are tons of promotion sites, and those sites sell to exactly these readers. This comment really makes me think that you don't really understand the business side of self publishing.

The existence of sites that have a proven record of positive ROI is the reason that self publishing is no longer a hail mary.

But these readers you highlight, even if they might like a book for reasons you've mentioned, might not even buy it in the first place to enjoy that story while not noticing plot inconsistencies, etc.

That's why cover, pitch, and sample are so important, much much more important, imo, to the success of an indie author than addressing plot inconsistencies.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I think BWFoster's approach to self-publishing generally is a valid one. It's not the only one, and you can't say it is objectively best (in my view), without defining terms precisely.

I'd like to see evidence on plot inconsistencies, though. I think that works with plot inconsistencies that nevertheless do well tend to have inconsistencies that most of the readers aren't noticing. I think if you have a glaring inconsistency that the majority of readers are going to notice, it's going to hurt you. How it'll hurt is in terms of reviews and readers remembering it and avoiding future works.

Readers aren't stupid. If you have glaring inconsistencies, they'll notice it, and they'll figure you either rushed the work and didn't care enough to resolve the issue, or that you assume they're stupid and won't notice it. On the other hand, with minor inconsistencies, many will not notice them. Of those who do, some may assume they've simply missed something and others may not care.

It depends on what the inconsistency is and how important it is to the work. If, at the end of the book, the reader is left thinking the plot didn't make any logical sense, I think they'll be a lot less likely to buy other works from you. There are just way too many alternatives that don't have glaring plot problems.

(Note, I am speaking in the abstract. I don't know if any work discussed here has plot inconsistencies or how substantial they are).
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I wonder, if perhaps Rise is not getting the reviews you had hoped for and this is stressing you out a bit? You need to know that it will still be OK? That it will still sell and you can still be successful even though it isn't perfect?

Let's be honest here: Rise is on track to earn more than $1000 this month. That's (admittedly low) four figures for my first ever release (of a novel).

Regardless of the reviews, I'm over the moon about the book's success.

As far as recouping costs, I'm getting pretty close to being there after a single month! Let's be clear that I'm in this thing for the long haul. I didn't expect to make any kind of profit until late 2017. It's entirely possible, given the success I'm seeing, that I'll turn a profit with my next round of releases in mid 2016. Maybe a big profit.

So no offense, but your theory is an epic fail. Epic.

I wonder if, Foster, you are not so compelled to convince us, as you are to convince yourself.

Read this next paragraph carefully because I do not know why this is so hard to understand:

I am trying to determine my best course of action in proceeding with my career. I do not have all the answers. If any of you present a well thought out logical or factual argument that proves me wrong, it's to my benefit to change my opinion.

Stated plain and simple: So far, I'm underwhelmed by the arguments that have been presented to counter the conclusions I've drawn based on the data at hand.

It really feels to me that the main argument against my conclusions is an emotional reaction against the concept of it being okay to not put out superior quality work. I think the main reason I sense that as an emotional reaction is that I used to feel the same way.

From my perspective, I changed my opinion because it didn't match what the data was telling me.
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
Ok. It was just a stab in the dark. I don't believe it is ever an epic fail to try to understand where another person is coming from and ask questions. I'm glad for you that's its doing so well! That is awesome news! So then, I don't think you have to convince anyone. Your strategy is obviously working for you and that is great!
 
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BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
It depends on what the inconsistency is and how important it is to the work. If, at the end of the book, the reader is left thinking the plot didn't make any logical sense, I think they'll be a lot less likely to buy other works from you. There are just way too many alternatives that don't have glaring plot problems.

As I responded to Russ, listening to your readers is important. If they care about the plot inconsistency (or any other problem), you need to listen to them.

At the same time, you absolutely cannot please every reader.

One of the biggest challenges of indie publishing is that you are responsible for everything, and there are a lot of really tough choices that you have to make. Where to put your limited resources of time and money are foremost among them. How (or if) to respond to reader criticism is another.

For Rise, I've chosen to spend $150 and a week of my writing time fixing the primary issue that the early reviews brought up. I did this because:

1. I think it will help me sell more books in the long run and give me a positive ROI.
2. The issue was clearly a screw up on my part, and emotionally, I hate having it hang out there.
3. The issue, while impossible to completely remove, is relatively easy and low cost to mitigate.

I think what Russ, Fifthview, and Heliotrope are missing most from my posts is that self publishing is an incredibly difficult business. There are a lot of choices that you have to make, and you can't always choose a good course; sometimes you have to choose the least bad.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Ok. It was just a stab in the dark. I don't believe it is ever an epic fail to try to understand where another person is coming from and ask questions. I'm glad for you that's its doing so well! That is awesome news! So then, I don't think you have to convince anyone. Your strategy is obviously working for you and that is great!

I was only trying to say "epic fail" in the sense that it wasn't accurate. I do appreciate the attempt to understand.

Note, however, that this isn't about convincing anyone; I truly don't care what anyone else thinks. I simply want to make sure, to the best of my ability, that I'm pursuing the right course.

Note also that Rise isn't based on any strategy on my part. I discovered my strategy after finishing the book. Any strategical considerations will impact future series. Had I known then what I know now, I would have made many different choices with Rise.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
@BWFoster

One nice thing about indie publishing is you can fix such problems and publish the new version easily. Congrats on the book sales - that's great news. You probably already know this, but remember to prepare for the tax consequences. A common mistake self-published authors make when they're selling a decent amount is to forget that they're going to get taxed on that income, and come April 15th, they're wondering how to come up with the amount owed. Not saying you're in that boat, but I make a habit of reminding anyone who is self publishing and getting more than a handful of sales.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
@BWFoster

One nice thing about indie publishing is you can fix such problems and publish the new version easily. Congrats on the book sales - that's great news. You probably already know this, but remember to prepare for the tax consequences. A common mistake self-published authors make when they're selling a decent amount is to forget that they're going to get taxed on that income, and come April 15th, they're wondering how to come up with the amount owed. Not saying you're in that boat, but I make a habit of reminding anyone who is self publishing and getting more than a handful of sales.

That's a good reminder. Luckily (or not?), I don't think exceed my expenditures this year by much.
 
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