Fantasy Combat! Hagrid vs Gregor =)

[Sheilawisz]

Hey FifthView.

At first, I considered to state as starting conditions that Hagrid and Gregor would both be disarmed. Then I figured that GoT fans would argue that it would be unfair to send Gregor to battle without his equipment, so I decided to state that he would be equipped with armor and sword as usual in order to stand a better chance against Hagrid.

I removed Hagrid's broken wand and Magic because, after all, Gregor has no Magic.

If Gregor has a giant sword proportional to his height, why not provide Hagrid with an oversized sword too? It's just fair. Hagrid is supposed to be furious and ready to kill because Gregor would be like that too, so I think that I have made the starting conditions for the fight as fair as possible.

A fight without weapons would be an even more obvious win for Hagrid.

I am surprised by the amount of support for Gregor in this thread. After all, I am still sad (as a fan of Assassin's Creed games) that Altair is often criticized for being a cold blooded killer. People have disliked him for having very shallow emotions and being a cold Predator, while people seem to love Gregor for being a murderer of children and also a serial rapist.

Altair is fine to me because he simply kills people in a quick and efficient way, but if he was disemboweling his victims or flaying them alive and also abusing women in dark alleys I would have a strong dislike for him and his game.

Sometimes I find it very difficult to understand people.

I think that, in the case of this thread, people might be supporting Gregor out of the spite and even hate that many feel for the Harry Potter series but... Who knows, I am not sure what is happening here.

 

[glutton]

People have disliked him for having very shallow emotions and being a cold Predator, while people seem to love Gregor for being a murderer of children and also a serial rapist.

I think people like Gregor more for his actor, his skull crushing move and his in universe aura than for him being a child murderer/rapist.

 

[Ireth]

I think people like Gregor more for his actor, his skull crushing move and his in universe aura than for him being a child murderer/rapist.

Yeah, um... being a child murderer/rapist is more of a reason to loathe someone's guts, IMO.

 

[Devor]

After all, I am still sad (as a fan of Assassin's Creed games) that Altair is often criticized for being a cold blooded killer.

Do people here make that criticism? I mean, I think the first instinct is to judge Gregor the winner based solely on the scale of badassery. At least, that was my first instinct - also, "NOOO!!! Poor Hagrid!" - it was only after I thought about it a moment that I put my bet on Hagrid.

Gregor ranks high on the badass scale. Hagrid doesn't; but he ranks higher on likability, for sure.

I don't think it's out of any particular disdain for Hagrid or Harry Potter.

 

[Penpilot]

I think that, in the case of this thread, people might be supporting Gregor out of the spite and even hate that many feel for the Harry Potter series but... Who knows, I am not sure what is happening here.

I won't speak for others, but I loved the Harry Potter series. And when it comes to characters, I'd rather hang with Hagrid than Gregor.

My "support" for Gregor is for the most part a dispassionate one. If this fight were to happen, I'd be cheering Hagrid, but I really do think Gregor would win.

In a life and death battle mental demeanour and skill can play a huge part. Size though significant means nothing without the will and skill to use it effectively.

I mean take a look at this. A chained up dog takes on a not so willing polar bear.

The polar bear could crush the dog. Heck, hungry polar bears eat dogs. But the bear doesn't really want any of it and gets chased away.

How about one cat vs five dogs

Cat Defends its Friend From Dogs - YouTube

 

[TheKillerBs]

But that example is a polar bear that doesn't want to fight. In this scenario, Hagrid has a reason to want to hurt Gregor. Imagine if that polar bear was a mother with her cubs. What do you think would happen to that dog?

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hey everyone.

Devor: Yes, people expressed that style of criticism against Altair in one of my old Assassin's Creed threads. Also, almost every AC fan that I have talked to feels the same way... I mean that they often regard Altair as an unlikable and uninteresting character, all because of his general coldness and lack of emotions in comparison to other characters.

With that in mind, I expected that almost everyone would support Hagrid in this thread.

I agree that Gregor ranks higher in the badass scale, but only because he is a villain. Hagrid has performed some pretty badass things as well (twisting a shotgun like it was made of rubber, tossing Walden Macnair across the Great Hall and defeating several Aurors at the same time) but because he is a good guy, people are less impressed by him.

Also, most people have the smaller and sweeter film version of Hagrid in mind, instead of the truly gigantic Hagrid of the books.

I am under the impression that Gregor's fans would argue that he would bring down a Tyrannosaurus Rex and other similar beasts, so I am going to stop offering more arguments in favor of Hagrid. We have already presented very clear points that indicate a very easy win for HP's giant, after all.

Maybe I should have made the battle with both characters disarmed, that would have been clearer.

 

[Penpilot]

I am under the impression that Gregor's fans would argue that he would bring down a Tyrannosaurus Rex and other similar beasts, so I am going to stop offering more arguments in favor of Hagrid. We have already presented very clear points that indicate a very easy win for HP's giant, after all.

Ok, I thought this was supposed to be for fun, but I find this response really dismissive. It's saying my opinion isn't based on anything sound, and the only reason I'm saying Gregor would win is because I some how like him as a character more than Hagrid.

I don't know how many logical fallacies are being committed here, but I'm willing to bet quite a few.

Maybe I should have made the battle with both characters disarmed, that would have been clearer.

And from this, I get the feeling that point of this thread was to talk about how awesome Hagrid is, not to discuss who one thinks would win. Because once you disarm Gregor, that swings all advantage towards Hagrid. The equalizing factor is Gregor's skill with the arms and armor.

Why don't we cut to the chase and just say Gregor is naked and has his arms and legs broken, and Hagrid is controlling the Death Star.

 

[Heliotrope]

Ummmmm... Neither of them actually exist... We do understand that right?

Dwight Shrute: What is the ratio of Stanley Nickels to Shrute bucks?

Stanley: Same as the ratio of unicorns to leprechauns.

Oh wait... Are we going to argue that now?

 

[CrystalCHTriple]

Gregor, and only because Hagrid is not giving the weapon to which he is accustom. In reality, both would be lumbering targets.

 

[TheKillerBs]

In reality, both would be lumbering targets.

Just because they're big doesn't mean they're slow. Both Hagrid and Gregor are quite quick. I really hate fighting games for that whole slow, lumbering giant notion they've put into people's heads.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hey Penpilot.

Sorry if my reply felt offensive to you. It was indeed dismissive because I do not intend to keep providing arguments in favor of Hagrid, having already explained all of my points. I know that I will not convince you that the difference in size is too great, and you are not going to convince me that Gregor's skill would be enough to win against an opponent five times larger than him.

So what's the point of continuing it?

I started this thread, but the whole idea of Hagrid vs Gregor has been discussed in other sites before. My intention to start it here was to have fun with what I expected to be a vast majority of opinions in favor of Hagrid (because yes, I have developed quite a grudge against GoT in general), and I had a lot of fun at the beginning but now I see that we cannot come to a conclusion.

Again, I am sorry if my comments made you feel angry or offended, that was not my intention.

 

[CrystalCHTriple]

Just because they're big doesn't mean they're slow. Both Hagrid and Gregor are quite quick. I really hate fighting games for that whole slow, lumbering giant notion they've put into people's heads.

It has to do with reality (which makes my comment rather meaningless and just plain pedantic as the thread is not a critique of fantasy realism), a perspective gained by having some practice with Olympic wrestling and extrapolating that into a situation involving sharpened metal bars and foot movement, not a perspective gained from a genre of video games I do not even play. And it is not just a matter of height but weight. Oberyn (in the book) making Gregor look like a mess of winded indiscipline with his finesse does not beggar belief, to me, considering I sprinted alongside offensive and defensive linemen and thus have an idea of how size can be a detriment in some cases.

Moving around in armour and chasing after someone a lot quicker than you is not fun.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

It has to do with reality (which makes my comment rather meaningless and just plain pedantic as the thread is not a critique of fantasy realism), a perspective gained by having some practice with Olympic wrestling and extrapolating that into a situation involving sharpened metal bars and foot movement, not a perspective gained from a genre of video games I do not even play. And it is not just a matter of height but weight. Oberyn (in the book) making Gregor look like a mess of winded indiscipline with his finesse does not beggar belief, to me, considering I sprinted alongside offensive and defensive linemen and thus have an idea of how size can be a detriment in some cases.

Moving around in armour and chasing after someone a lot quicker than you is not fun.

The problem with this statement is that you are judging lateral quickness based on straightline speed. There is a significant difference between the two. The better test would be to look at 20 yard shuttles and three cone drills. The lighter guy will, of course, be quicker but the differences wouldn't be as great as some people assume.

 

[TheKillerBs]

It has to do with reality (which makes my comment rather meaningless and just plain pedantic as the thread is not a critique of fantasy realism), a perspective gained by having some practice with Olympic wrestling and extrapolating that into a situation involving sharpened metal bars and foot movement, not a perspective gained from a genre of video games I do not even play. And it is not just a matter of height but weight. Oberyn (in the book) making Gregor look like a mess of winded indiscipline with his finesse does not beggar belief, to me, considering I sprinted alongside offensive and defensive linemen and thus have an idea of how size can be a detriment in some cases.

Moving around in armour and chasing after someone a lot quicker than you is not fun.

You want to talk about reality? First of all, according to historians, re-enactors, and HEMA people, plate armour does not significantly affect your movement due to its weight distribution. If you are agile out of armour, you will still be agile in armour.

Second, and I love that you pointed out working with linemen, NFL linemen, while slow compared to other NFL athletes, are still quite fast compared to the average person.

Third, as Brian pointed out, what I meant by quickness was not straight-line speed, but rather burst, sudden/start-stop movement, lateral agility, and the like.

 

[FifthView]

A lot of quickness is also due to muscle memory, training, mental acuity, and a number of other things rather than mere physical capability.

For instance, a swordsman used to reacting quickly to another swordsman's flashing sword, footwork, and so forth might have an edge on the fighter who typically stands back to shoot a crossbow or wave a wand, or who grapples like a wrestler, using strength to overpower rather than speed. (NOT that I'm saying a wrestler doesn't need somewhat quick reflexes vs another wrestler.)

I remember a discussion on MS about the Netflix show Jessica Jones. In the course of mentioning a few negatives, I made a comment about how Jessica Jones, who is quite strong compared to a normal human, was tackled by a regular guy and lay on the floor under him long enough to let the bad guy get away (yet again!), as if she couldn't throw her tackler off–despite having previously shown she could leap very high into the air while holding a full-grown man. Regarding the fact that a normal human could tackle Jessica Jones, someone else made the comment, rightly so, that base strength is not the issue so much as stance/center of gravity, or some such. And I agree (even if that doesn't explain how, from a lying position, Jessica Jones couldn't remove her tackler rather easily and quickly.) Like speed, base strength isn't always a measure of what a person can do or prevent, depending on the circumstances. In the case of Hagrid: If he has a firm stand and gets a straight shot, he could put a LOT of power behind a punch; but if he's trying to swat a quickly moving target who is not where he thought the target would be just a second before, he might not be able to put as much strength behind a given blow. I.e., if he begins a punch, the target moves, and he has to redirect his punch, a lot of force could be lost. (But if he's in a berzerker rage, swatting furiously in every direction without regard to where his target is, perhaps each swat would be quite strong. In this case he's also depending a little on luck, to get the good hit.)

When I first voted in the poll, I was one of those who voted for a fairly easy Gregor win. But that was before many had commented in this thread. In the course of this debate, I've grown far less certain of that outcome. I think I'd still have to default to a comment that I made earlier: The outcome of the fight would probably be determined within the first minute or so. I just don't know what that outcome would be.

 

[TheKillerBs]

I think it would be decided in the first few seconds and I am pretty confident on the outcome. You see, I do agree with you that if Hagrid attempted to fence with Gregor, he would lose. Quite easily, I might add. However, I don't think he would. Like you pointed out, Hagrid could just swipe at Gregor, which would require a lot of luck IF Hagrid didn't have a big, flat surface he could grip in his hand to increase his margin for error to nearly 100%. Quite frankly, I just see Hagrid gripping the shield from the edge and swinging it about. This shield, sayeth the scenario creator, would be scaled to his size, which would make it just a bit smaller than Gregor. The only way I can see Gregor not being reduced to a crumpled up ball of tin foil within 10 seconds is if he legs it, and even then I'm not sure he would be able to outrun Hagrid. Those giant legs would cover A LOT of ground with each step.

 

[FifthView]

I think it would be decided in the first few seconds and I am pretty confident on the outcome. You see, I do agree with you that if Hagrid attempted to fence with Gregor, he would lose. Quite easily, I might add. However, I don't think he would. Like you pointed out, Hagrid could just swipe at Gregor, which would require a lot of luck IF Hagrid didn't have a big, flat surface he could grip in his hand to increase his margin for error to nearly 100%. Quite frankly, I just see Hagrid gripping the shield from the edge and swinging it about. This shield, sayeth the scenario creator, would be scaled to his size, which would make it just a bit smaller than Gregor. The only way I can see Gregor not being reduced to a crumpled up ball of tin foil within 10 seconds is if he legs it, and even then I'm not sure he would be able to outrun Hagrid. Those giant legs would cover A LOT of ground with each step.

I do agree that the shield is a major factor, and I said as much in an earlier comment. But I also think that something's not quite right with the initial conditions given for the fight. To make the fight "fair," Hagrid is given a sword and shield; and so in all "fairness," he obviously wins outright in 2 seconds. OK.

Even so, he's never used a shield and sword before, in all likelihood, and he's never had to anticipate the moves of a skilled swordsman. Perhaps if he goes into the fight after having read this thread, he'll know to start swinging his shield wildly from the first second.

 

[TheKillerBs]

I'm not saying that because I think he would do it because that would give him the best chance to win, I think he has the best chance to win because that's what I think he would do. Like you pointed out, Hagrid has never used a shield and sword before, but he has fought before, both man and beast. And while he has never used them, he knows what they are and what they are for, so he would know that the sharp, pointy, steel stick is dangerous. And he knows that the round flat thing is supposed to keep the sharp, pointy, steel thing away. And to Hagrid, the guy in steel clothing is only dangerous because of the sword, so his instinct would be to swipe at it with the shield. And quite frankly, that swing is pretty much unavoidable if Gregor is within reach, and even if he only gets within reach after the swing, he'll still be hit by the back swing.

 

[FifthView]

I'd like to point out that "proportional" size for weapon and shield was specified only after the fact by the poll creator. Initially,

Gregor will have his armor, sword and shield while Hagrid will be given a sword and shield too, but no armor. They really want to kill each other, and this does not end until one of them is dead!

it's not specified. This isn't an argument pro or con Hagrid's win, but one added reason for my initial vote, since my mind hadn't at the time filled in the blank for size of sword and shield.

And we still don't know the size of the shield. There are, after all, many different kinds of shields, of varying sizes relative to the wielder.

But even if we suppose that Hagrid's shield is nearly the size of Gregor, the fact of the matter is that Hagrid needs to cover a size more like his own. That's nearly twelve feet of a very broad half-giant.

I do believe that the shield is a major factor and that odds are in Hagrid's favor because of the shield (and other factors.) But if Gregor is reading this thread, perhaps he might decide before the battle begins to open by running straight at Hagrid and, just as Hagrid sweeps his shield, slide under it and swipe at the half-giant's ankles. I know that Gregor can nearly cut the head off a horse; but that's with a good stance. So maybe he couldn't chop Hagrid's foot cleanly off, but he might make it halfway through—enough to hobble Hagrid. And he could come up behind Hagrid, who'd probably be in quite some pain and a little surprised.

Still, nothing's certain, and the move might not work.