Avoiding cliched elves and genre crossovers in a Fantasy Project.

[Laurence]

If you want elves that you don't want to be how people imagine elves then why call them elves? You obviously want something about them to be similar. Work out what, then you can make sure nothing else about them is.

 

[WooHooMan]

Why are people still responding to the original post? This thread should have derailed into talking about jazz and disco elves.
That's more interesting than thirty different shades of "don't avoid cliches unless you do avoid them in which case, follow your heart or something".

The "angels" in my story were basically created more as astral bodies that could travel through space and were sent to find a planet suitable for the gods to use to create their first world when the cosmos first manifested. Once it was established they were given a physical body to dwell in, and then "ruled" over things. At least until problems arose.

"Angels" in my setting are the physical incarnations of incorporeal bodies traveling through space before settling on the only planet that could facilitate them. Once the "angels" settled, they stabilized into their usual humanoid bodies and decided they were most qualify to "rule over things". This caused issues when humans said "no".

So...it looks like one of us are going to have to change our story. I mean, what if someone accused one of us as being unoriginal? That would be bad...for some reason.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Well, if you're writing about jazz and disco elves, you've definitely avoided cliched elves.

 

[Ban]

Why are people still responding to the original post? This thread should have derailed into talking about jazz and disco elves.

Gee whiz, that's a swell idea! So let's get groovy with it, you dig?




(I am so, so sorry for that)

 

[SeverinR]

Why are people still responding to the original post? This thread should have derailed into talking about jazz and disco elves.
That's more interesting than thirty different shades of "don't avoid cliches unless you do avoid them in which case, follow your heart or something".

.

I think you meant 50 shades of (Gray) elf. lol.

 

[Peat]

People shouldn't talk about the jazz listening elves, as it makes me sad no one's written about 1950s elves fighting communism. Honestly one of the greatest ideas I've ever seen on the internet.

 

[Ban]

People shouldn't talk about the jazz listening elves, as it makes me sad no one's written about 1950s elves fighting communism. Honestly one of the greatest ideas I've ever seen on the internet.

Well I have decided that I will write about my 50's space elves while an ongoing cold war with the communists is happening. Currently I am writing the outline for the story. So about a decade from now you might be able to read about it.

 

[Peat]

Well I have decided that I will write about my 50's space elves while an ongoing cold war with the communists is happening. Currently I am writing the outline for the story. So about a decade from now you might be able to read about it.

Write faster plz.

 

[Chessie]

If you want elves that you don't want to be how people imagine elves then why call them elves? You obviously want something about them to be similar. Work out what, then you can make sure nothing else about them is.

Precisely. It's also the very frustrating part about changing up elves: will fantasy readers accept your version of things? Like right now I'm struggling with why an elven lord would marry a human. That's absolutely a rarity given all we've grown up reading. So then my heroine had to also become an elf because I don't feel like coming up with a lame explanation as to why the hero would choose a human--someone who is going to die waaaay before he does--to be his lifemate. There are just some things I'm willing to change about elves but when it comes to social/relationship customs, I tend to just honor what's come before my time.

 

[MineOwnKing]

Precisely. It's also the very frustrating part about changing up elves: will fantasy readers accept your version of things? Like right now I'm struggling with why an elven lord would marry a human. That's absolutely a rarity given all we've grown up reading. So then my heroine had to also become an elf because I don't feel like coming up with a lame explanation as to why the hero would choose a human--someone who is going to die waaaay before he does--to be his lifemate. There are just some things I'm willing to change about elves but when it comes to social/relationship customs, I tend to just honor what's come before my time.

Um...Beren and Lúthien, Elrond...

 

[Chessie]

Um...Beren and Lúthien, Elrond...

Lol I know, but it still doesn't make sense. :/ At least not in my world.

 

[Peat]

Precisely. It's also the very frustrating part about changing up elves: will fantasy readers accept your version of things? Like right now I'm struggling with why an elven lord would marry a human. That's absolutely a rarity given all we've grown up reading. So then my heroine had to also become an elf because I don't feel like coming up with a lame explanation as to why the hero would choose a human--someone who is going to die waaaay before he does--to be his lifemate. There are just some things I'm willing to change about elves but when it comes to social/relationship customs, I tend to just honor what's come before my time.

Tbf, people marry terminal cancer victims, which can be seen as roughly the same thing. They also marry prisoners with life sentences and bridges. Bridges are the big inanimate stone things that go over rivers btw, not any obscure slang for anything else.

Compared to which, an elven lord marrying a human makes the most perfect of sense.

p.s. Pedantically speaking, neither of Beren or Elrond are examples of elven lords marrying humans; in fact, I don't think there is a single example of it in Tolkien's work. A fair amount of human lords marrying elves, but zero the other way about.

 

[Ban]

Precisely. It's also the very frustrating part about changing up elves: will fantasy readers accept your version of things? Like right now I'm struggling with why an elven lord would marry a human. That's absolutely a rarity given all we've grown up reading. So then my heroine had to also become an elf because I don't feel like coming up with a lame explanation as to why the hero would choose a human--someone who is going to die waaaay before he does--to be his lifemate. There are just some things I'm willing to change about elves but when it comes to social/relationship customs, I tend to just honor what's come before my time.

Maybe you can make humans more fertile in your world than elves. For an elven lord desperate for an heir, it would be very beneficial to marry a human. Otherwise you can make your humans stronger, more resistant, more enduring. An elven lord would gain prestige from marrying someone like that and his children would be healthier.

Having a good heir was extremely important for human nobility, so I assume it would be for elven nobility as well.

 

[Chessie]

Banten, thank you for those ideas. I've been marinating on the fertility one and you just added on to its possibility.

And to answer this:

p.s. Pedantically speaking, neither of Beren or Elrond are examples of elven lords marrying humans; in fact, I don't think there is a single example of it in Tolkien's work. A fair amount of human lords marrying elves, but zero the other way about.

You're right. There aren't any examples of this and we can only speculate as to why that is. I read an interesting article about how it wouldn't be/seem right for male elves to give up their immortality for a human--the way it's been done with the reverse gender, and that they would be reducing themselves in status/class/rank to marry a human. But elves in my world aren't immortal so...that's not really a problem.

 

[Queshire]

I think you should look at this from the perspective of the Elf. The reasons behind why he would marry a human is a good opportunity to establish his personality. Maybe the human (or one of her ancestors) saved his life sometime in the past? Maybe he just finds humans more interesting than those old boring elves. Maybe it's a political move to counter the build up of political power in a rival noble family which would have been completed should he be forced to marry a representative of that family?

 

[Ireth]

Banten, thank you for those ideas. I've been marinating on the fertility one and you just added on to its possibility.

And to answer this:


You're right. There aren't any examples of this and we can only speculate as to why that is. I read an interesting article about how it wouldn't be/seem right for male elves to give up their immortality for a human--the way it's been done with the reverse gender, and that they would be reducing themselves in status/class/rank to marry a human. But elves in my world aren't immortal so...that's not really a problem.

Actually, there IS one example of an elven lord falling in love with a human woman in Tolkien's works; it just didn't end with them being married. Aegnor, one of the Noldor of Tirion, followed the host of Feanor to Middle-earth and there fell in love with Andreth, a human woman of the house of Beor. She returned his feelings, but they could not act upon them, since Aegnor was soon killed in the battle known as Dagor Bragollach.

Source: Aegnor - The One Wiki to Rule Them All - Wikia

 

[Peat]

Well-ll... we know that classically, elves are all lithe and skinny and shiznit, right? So maybe its as simple at this...

Ya hears me?! All you other leaf munchers can't deny!


Also, my money on Tolkien's gender imbalance in Elf-Hooman relationships (thanks for providing the exception Ireth) is simply a blind spot on gender and no intentional meaning. Even when we get an Elf lusting after a human, the male actor is the most important. So, with male actors being the most important, and Elf-Human relationships generally being a sign that this Human is Super Cool, stands to reason there'd be an imbalance.

 

[Chessie]

^^ HA for reals! Dear reader, the elf likes curves. Word.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Please please please please write the 1950's disco elves story. I will read the living heck out of it.

 

[MineOwnKing]

Wouldn't Lúthien be considered more important?

She defeated Sauron and lulled Melkor to sleep.