The Hazards of Diversity and Cultural Appropriation

[Chessie]

I'm Hispanic and have Native Alaskan mythology/culture in my fantasy stories. I seriously doubt any of my Native buddies would be pissed about that. Honestly, I agree with Russ. The loud minority makes a big deal out of cultural appropriation and racism etc, when the silent majority doesn't seem to...really care that much. Just like with the discussion here a few weeks ago about how to refer to people of color in literature...ok, as a brown skinned person I hate being referred to as a "POC". Just call me Hispanic. Call me cinnamon (my husband does) and it doesn't offend. THINK and assume that I'm offended easily and that's more annoying that anything.

Yes, do your research. Yes, be considerate, compassionate, and respectful of the cultures you're writing about and there shouldn't be a problem. (sorry, I get so tired of attempted censorship and control of art)

 

[Mindfire]

You know, I want to take a second to mention Avatar, the Last Airbender, because one of my projects is in a similar vein so far as this topic is concerned, and I don't think I'm the only one.

One of the criticisms I've seen leveled against the show is that the characters are written for a modern American audience, and don't do a good job reflecting modern or traditional Asian personality traits. A lot of characters are free-spirited, for instance, while there are very few expressions of shame, which would have been much more common than we see portrayed in the show.

But, I don't feel that I'm personally equipped to write directly for anything but an American audience. If I have anything to say about life and the human experience, it would be through the context of an American audience. I don't have a lot to say about East Asian life and values except perhaps in the most obvious outsider perspective. A lot of these things are universal, absolutely, and I don't mean to limit the appeal of anything I write, only the way that I personally can focus it.

Isn't that, at least to some degree, cultural appropriation? How can I write a story like Avatar, the Last Airbender, while showing respect for the base cultures, not crossing all of the wrong lines, and still using characters that appeal primarily to a modern American (let's add the UK and the like) audience?

I think the fact that Avatar is so highly regarded, even (or especially) in "social justice" circles, speaks for itself. And I've never heard any of the criticisms you mention. But since Avatar is set in a completely fictional world, it has some wiggle room with regard to culture. And those elements of the culture it does represent it does so respectfully. I would say Avatar is a textbook example of how to do it right. No matter what story you tell it's always going to be filtered through your perspective. I don't think that's really an issue. Just pay attention and make thoughtful decisions.

 

[Trick]

Thanks to everyone for the articles, the speech and the arguments/responses. Very interesting reading.

The only thing I would add is that, as a white male, I have often felt restricted in what I may or may not write, when it comes to people of other races and cultures. Fortunately, due not in small part to discussions here on MS, I have also recognized that it is just that, a feeling. There are no culture police who will arrest me if I write something offensive, intentionally or otherwise. I may not have much of a readership though... and that's kind of important.

I have been working on a short story cycle where the primary antagonist is a Haitian woman who practices hoodoo to the detriment of others. I will not call her a villain because she is not that, though some of her actions appear villainous to other characters and, at times, even to the reader. The primary protagonist is black, with a mix of backgrounds which include Haitian ancestors. He is portrayed as a hero but I'm not sure he is one - we'll see once the stories are done. I want him to be one but he has a mind of his own and he's pretty freaked out by what's going on in his life right now.

Anyhow, the point of this is that I was worried about portraying POC, an entire real-world belief system and other aspects of lives I have not lived because I thought I was very likely to get it wrong. I have taken two steps to avoid this: (1) I am researching everything quite thoroughly and (2) I reached out to an academic expert on hoodoo and African-American religious and spiritual studies. She said she was happy to read my work and let me know if I was making any big mistakes and cautioned me against a few common ones. She is doing this for free BTW.

It took me an hour to find her.

So, am I appropriating the culture of others for my stories? Absolutely. Am I going to offend anyone? Maybe. But I'm doing everything I can to do it right. That's the best we can do and I think the majority of people will be just fine with it. Let the extremists hate our work... I, for one, am not writing for them anyway.

On another note, if this cultural appropriation issue actually grows out of control (doubtful), I expect apologies from everyone not of Irish descent for celebrating St. Patrick's Day

 

[FifthView]

One of the more frequent pieces of advice given on Mythic Scribes, relating to world building, is to use various world cultures and mix and match them.

I remember that during the 80's, I'd encounter cultures in fantasy novels that were obviously based to some extent on Russia—they were the "bad" or antagonistic society. The threatening invaders. Probably, the Cold War influenced this. It's been too long, and I was too young at the time, for me to remember precisely how many times this happened in books I read. But I do distinctly remember once noticing this consciously: Aha! It's based on Russia! And it didn't ruin my experience. I vaguely remember more than one instance. Then again, I do remember more distinct cases in the comic books I read.

My greatest irritation with the debate between these conflicting essays that have been linked: The quality of any given novel or story seems to be entirely beside the point, unimportant, to the debate.

And that seems fundamentally wrong to me. But maybe in my old age I'm growing into an aesthete.

I do not particularly believe in "art for art's sake," because while I do think authors should write for themselves, I also recognize the social and cultural relevance of the written word. Also, the economic relevance—I've been wondering if this is the one industry about which I'm 100% in favor of letting the free market and only the free market sort things out, rather than instituting any sort of regulations concerning its creation and sale.

But then the question arises, Is it truly a "free" market?

Even so, even considering these things, I think that the quality of the work should be more important than who gets to write it and who gets to sell it.

This is part of the reason why I'd much rather focus on the writing aspect—how to do it well, what to avoid, and so forth—than on the political and economic issues.

 

[Devor]

One of the more frequent pieces of advice given on Mythic Scribes, relating to world building, is to use various world cultures and mix and match them.

This is actually something that I've mentioned quite a few times, and that I actually came to because of the project I mentioned above. The whole setting is based on East-Asian cultures, and the cultures that I've created are specific and different and deep (so far I can tell), but there's no hopefully clear correlation where one culture is Japan and the next is China or the Philippines.

But the goal for me is to get as far away from the real world and into the fantasy setting as possible, but to still have something grounded and a little familiar.

I don't claim that people have to do this, not by any means. But I will say that using some cultures hits a little more close to home for people and take a little more care than others do. A Russian terrorist isn't going to annoy too many people right now, and many of the people of East Asia have their storytelling traditions well represented in the world of anime and Bollywood.

But I would want to take great care with trying to present a specific Native American tribe, for instance. There's several reasons for that. The overall lack of representation, the harshness of history, but also, my own difficulty in parsing and absorbing the right source material for that kind of challenge. I can try to include a loose interpretation in a fantasy world, but I have to know my limits.

My greatest irritation with the debate between these conflicting essays that have been linked: The quality of any given novel or story seems to be entirely beside the point, unimportant, to the debate.

And that seems fundamentally wrong to me. But maybe in my old age I'm growing into an aesthete.

Yes, I agree here 100%. The difference between something that's seen as diverse and something that's seen as insensitive is often one of quality. "No, that brown-skinned character wasn't very well developed, but did you notice that nobody else was either?" In some cases it's a little unfair and the critics need to recognize where people are on the learning curve.

In others, though, writers make choices about where to put the extra work. I know I've edited my sections thinking, "I need to do a better job with character A because that's my main character." So I do. I put the extra work into character A, but not characters B or C, at least at any given moment. But if character A is the white guy main character, and characters B and C are the POC sidekicks, that choice not to put the extra work into them will show up in the final product. In one sense, the work is just unfinished, because I didn't give the other characters that last touch in this hypothetical. In another, dude, why didn't I do that?

 

[Reaver]

I've moved this thread to Chit Chat as it seems the most appropriate place for it. Thanks to all participants. So far this thread seems to be going well so let's keep it that way. As a friendly reminder I'm going to add a quote from one of my esteemed colleagues here at Mythic Scribes:

**Everyone, please read this**

Diversity issues, issues of race, gender, sexuality, and so on, are important to the human condition, and as such they have a valid, important place across the entire body of human arts. That includes fantasy literature. We want to see these discussions continue on Mythic Scribes, but it is important that the members of this site be able to have those discussions in a way that respectful of the issues, of other members, and reflect well on the site and all of us.

To that end, please do not escalate tension or animosity in threads like this. If you disagree with an opinion, find a way to do it without profanity, insults, condescension, or attacks on other members. Do it without characterizing the other member, or putting words in their mouth. There have been points across all of these types of threads, over the years I've been here, where the discussion goes from one where people are at odds, but no one is calling names, using profanity, or otherwise attacking members, to a post or two that escalates the thread to a point where people are doing just that.

Do not be the person to escalate the thread. It doesn't lead to the kind of discourse we want and does not comport with the rules of the forum. I realize these issues touch on certain emotions in some people a lot more than others, and that's perfectly understandable, but at the end of the day we want to keep a certain level of professionalism and congeniality on these forums. If a thread is bothering you enough that you don't feel able to do that, please step away from the thread. If it is something that needs to be brought to a moderator's attention, please PM one of us.

Thank you all, in advance, for working to keep these discussions on an even keel so that we can still have them in these forums.

 

[Reaver]

I'd also like to remind all participants of our Forum Rules regarding sensitive topics.

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[Peat]

I am more familiar with the definition of cultural appropriation given by Steerpike and as presented by Lionel Shriver than I am any others.

I don't want to dismiss the issues that arise from white people having an easier time of gaining recognition with their tales of non-white experiences than non-white people - or straight with gay, male with female, and on and on. But at the same time I don't want to see the issue of people trying to lock people out of discussing (or out of fiction, experienced) certain human experiences because they're the wrong type of human dismissed either.

I will completely agree the latter is a lesser problem. Probably a far lesser problem. But I think it is a problem that grows when it is brought up and people go dismiss it - most problems do. I'd like to see this problem nipped in the bud partially because I think its incredibly illiberal and restricting, partly because I think it distracts attention from the actual problem.

I would add that, insofar as I'm aware, I've basically only discussed cultural appropriation with white people and one Jewish person (people in this thread not included because with the exception of Chesterama I don't know/I've yet to discuss it with people). I can't help but feel the general discussion on cultural appropriation on the net would be more helpful if there were more people with skin in the game.

I have to say I think the right path of action in this is to simply to go out and write boldly and respectfully, and accept there will be people who criticise you whatever you do. Someone complained to Shriver because she was a thin woman writing about fat people; someone complained to Scott Lynch that he had lady pirates. Being thin-skinned about other thin-skinned people probably isn't the way forwards.

 

[Miskatonic]

Given I approach my writing with no intention of denigrating another ethnic group (or any other group), I'm not overly concerned about these concepts. There is no motivation on my part to depict people in a certain way in order to establish some sort of social commentary or other political agenda. My main series is more racially diverse than the average fantasy story, but it isn't because I'm trying to champion the cause of diversity. I want a variety of cultures to work with because the relationship between humans and their gods is one of the major themes of the books, and as we can see in our own world the interpretations of gods/god is quite varied as you move across the globe.

There will always be people out there just chomping at the bit to complain about how one group or another is depicted in writing, even if there is really nothing to complain about. I could write a very fair portrayal of women and a handful of feminists would burn me in effigy for being a misogynist; or I could write about black people in a manner that has no hint of racism or prejudice and yet some black people out there would scream racism because I'm a white person writing black characters.