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Senseless Character Behavior - Lazy Writing?

I am wrestling with a particular aspect of my story right now - a community that plays quite an important role. The thing about this community is that much of their behavior is utterly mystifying. And the significance of this concerns me because some of this nonsensical behavior is key to shaping how the story plays out. I can't help but worry if this will leave a sour taste in the readers' mouths; if it will come across as poor writing, having characters doing things for no coherent reason, seemingly only because the writer needs them to do those things.

I am not talking about a community of lunatics, either. Lunacy offers a writer a great deal of leeway to explain away the nonsensical actions of a rogue character or two.

No, these people live as they do with (seemingly) stable minds. But what they do confounds my main characters and, presumably, will confound the audience, too. And perhaps what troubles me most about it is that even I don't really understand why these people do what they do. As the author - the creator of this world, do I have a duty to understand why my characters are what they are, why they do what they do? Especially when the plot hinges upon their unconventional character? Or is "just because..." good enough?

My fear is that having a nonsensical element play such a major role will turn the story into something that leaves the readers going "WTF did I just read?" I know that there's a niche for abstract storytelling, but I personally have never cared for it. I like to leave a story feeling like I've understood what I've just read/watched.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
Too abstract for an answer, it all depends on exactly what you're doing and how well it's done. In general, things that don't make sense are best left to the first parts of a novel, readers will accept coincidences and and oddities best early on. And if these people are introduced early, and kept consistent, and also do things just as odd consistently throughout that aren't needed for the plot, you might be ok. But if the reader consistently makers these people as a writer's plot tool, yeah, you could be in trouble.

So in the end, you get the all too typical and annoying answer... yes, no, maybe, Splunge! (see: Monty Python's Flying Circus)
 

ThinkerX

Myth Weaver
Not enough information.

Suggest you take one or more of these seemingly eccentric citizens and have a 'out of town' Q & A session with them.

Also, very strange habits can develop in relative isolation, plus people are very good at convincing themselves something false is true, or vice versa.
 
Perhaps you can grow an observation of what their general purpose is through another character if not the 'why'. As an example the Borg from Star Trek come to mind. Their immediate goals aren't always clear except that the Crew know one end goal, a perfect society of logical beings. You are attempting the opposite but I see a certain symmetry.

In general, things that don't make sense are best left to the first parts of a novel, readers will accept coincidences and and oddities best early on. And if these people are introduced early, and kept consistent, and also do things just as odd consistently throughout that aren't needed for the plot, you might be ok. But if the reader consistently makers these people as a writer's plot tool, yeah, you could be in trouble.

I generally agree with Mystagogue's statement in truth. But what you're attempting likely isn't impossible.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
My general thought everything must have a reason even people who have mental issues have reasons for their behaviour. It's not random, in real life and not. So even if your characters are doing something that seems random or nonsensical to the reader or other characters, IMHO the writer should know the reasons for the actions.

The reasons may be irrational but nevertheless they're there.
 
I can kind of relate to the problem. in my horror WIP, there are a lot of elements of dream-logic that after finishing you could perceive as incoherent, but the way I've written it is so everything is symbolic in some way or has a hidden meaning, so comprehending the incoherence is the point (my hope is, however, that the tension and journey of the main character makes it worth investing).

In one particular instance, I had to remove a character. This character was acted strangely and eventually gave the character important exposition before the climax of the story through his strangeness. I did give hints to his reasoning, the idea that he was the member of some sort of benevolent cult, but it was irrelevant to the story (I actually wanted to use it as a way to connect to future works set in the same universe), and the double meaning I had given it was too loose. So the more I tried to write it and make it work, the more it just felt like his character was there to give the exposition, with the eccentric traits being only an excuse. So I cut him out and gave the exposition to another character who was already in the story. And it's better for it, being much more focused now.

In your case, I'd have to say it comes down to the common answer of 'it depends on how you execute it', but maybe you could give us more information.
 
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I am wrestling with a particular aspect of my story right now - a community that plays quite an important role. The thing about this community is that much of their behavior is utterly mystifying. And the significance of this concerns me because some of this nonsensical behavior is key to shaping how the story plays out. I can't help but worry if this will leave a sour taste in the readers' mouths; if it will come across as poor writing, having characters doing things for no coherent reason, seemingly only because the writer needs them to do those things.

I am not talking about a community of lunatics, either. Lunacy offers a writer a great deal of leeway to explain away the nonsensical actions of a rogue character or two.

No, these people live as they do with (seemingly) stable minds. But what they do confounds my main characters and, presumably, will confound the audience, too. And perhaps what troubles me most about it is that even I don't really understand why these people do what they do. As the author - the creator of this world, do I have a duty to understand why my characters are what they are, why they do what they do? Especially when the plot hinges upon their unconventional character? Or is "just because..." good enough?

My fear is that having a nonsensical element play such a major role will turn the story into something that leaves the readers going "WTF did I just read?" I know that there's a niche for abstract storytelling, but I personally have never cared for it. I like to leave a story feeling like I've understood what I've just read/watched.

I personally would find 'just because' as an explanation for a crucial plot point to be pretty frustrating. Especially if it's character choice/motivation/behavior related. If you don't have an explanation for something that seems like nonsense, then it's just that. nonsense. Your plot can't be built on a foundation of nonsense at a crucial structural point.

You'll have to find an explanation that makes sense to the reader.

of course, without reading the story, nothing i say is for sure, but i'm going on the information i have. With a reader like me it would be very hard to pull off.
 
On the other hand i have done stories with a surreal, dreamlike, reality warping feel that leave things unexplained and still work (I think) because it's not supposed to work like reality and the reader understands that. if you could introduce some of that--the sense that reality is twisted here and doesn't matter--into your...community, did you say? Is it some kind of cult? you might be able to pull it off.

Could you give some details? A cult where nothing and no one seems to obey reality sounds really scary and fun...
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
If the only nonsensical things they do are exactly what the plot needs at that moment, a reader is going to spot that a mile away. If they do nonsensical things that disrupt your plot, send it off in meaningless directions, that's more realistic but it's also going to be frustrating.

The very meaning of the word is that it's not going to make sense. You're trying to persuade us that it really does make sense. The only way to sell that is to sell it in-story, to reveal to the reader the logic underlying the craziness.

On a separate level, I wouldn't buy it for an instant, though. Any people are a people precisely because they cooperate. They are a family, a village, a city, a civilization. At every point, they do things that make sense to each other, or else they risk doing unintended harm to each other. Social organizations are inherently sensible, no matter how nuts or offensive they appear to an outsider. So if you posit a people who really are nonsensical--unless you are writing a comedy--then you're going to lose me.

Also, you use the word mystifying as well as nonsensical. I submit those are to rather different concepts. I'd buy the former.
 
Thanks everybody for some really insightful points of view. Reading your responses has solidified my initial suspicion that at the very least I have to understand why these people do what they do for the story to have integrity.

Some of you have asked for more details so here are some of the key issues I have with the cult I was talking about:
* They worship grotesque idols that are imbued with a dark magic. Exposure to these idols causes mild pain and distress, and this effect becomes more pronounced the longer one is exposed to it. Despite the fact that these idols are noxious objects, their darkness is static, and it could easily be avoided by removing the idols from the settlement or even destroying them. The idols do not "contain" the darkness per se; destroying them will destroy the darkness, not set it free to wreak greater havoc. The idols have the detrimental effects I have mentioned and they have no beneficial aspects. The cult can't even weaponize the darkness to use against their enemies. Yet despite this, the cult insists on worshipping these dark, unpleasant things that do them only harm and no good.

Duress isn't a factor either. There's no wrathful god above who will punish them if they don't worship the idols. There is no reason why they shouldn't dispose of these idols. But instead, they do the exact opposite.

* The cult is in the midst of severe poverty. There is god in their pantheon who is known to bestow prosperity and he is worshipped and well-regarded. Yet his rituals - the acts that actually incur the prosperity - are not practiced at all. My main characters probe this issue a bit and discover that the cult actually has an aversion to these rituals. Also, many of the rituals of the principal god they worship actually counteract any effect these other rituals might have. It's almost as if they endeavour to protect themselves against this lesser god (i.e. the prosperity god), despite the fact that they regard him well and do not fear him.

In case you were wondering, there's also no secret "unexpected consequences" aspect to performing the prosperity god's rituals, which the cult might secretly be savvy to. My other characters invoke this god several times themselves and are never beset with having to pay a dreadful price for utilizing his magic. There is no good reason for people in need of divine favor to abstain from invoking this god's power.

In contrast, the principal god they worship is in effect useless and does little if anything beneficial for them. As before, there is also no duress factor as he is so impotent, the cult have no fear that abandoning him would incur some kind of "wrath from heaven".

* In a nutshell, I don't understand their endgame. They devote a great deal of effort in to accumulating a resource that is somewhat toxic. Small quantities of this resource can be expended help them "mine" much more of the resource, but otherwise the resource has no use. It's trading value is negligible, nobody else really wants it and it does nothing of value, neither alone nor when combined with other elements. Yet the core of the cult's agenda seems to be stockpiling a massive quantity of this resource.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
Given the details, worshipping a god and rituals is a perfectly fine reason to do things like keep dark idols around. If you look at our world. Religion has made people do things that may not make sense to others. And I'm not just talking about bad stuff like 9/11. It has inspired people to go into plague infested areas to help, risking and in some cases costing these people their lives.
 
Given the details, worshipping a god and rituals is a perfectly fine reason to do things like keep dark idols around. If you look at our world. Religion has made people do things that may not make sense to others. And I'm not just talking about bad stuff like 9/11. It has inspired people to go into plague infested areas to help, risking and in some cases costing these people their lives.

Yeah, but in those cases, there's still a certain degree of logic that, even as an outsider, I can appreciate. Like venturing in to the plague to help others is a sacrifice that, theoretically, pays off by lifting someone else's quality of life and making the world a better place. Even from the point of view of the person who walks into the plague, you can argue that there is benefit, as he gains the sense of fulfilment that he's made a wonderful difference in somebody's life, and also, by leading through example, he's helped cultivate a spirit of charity and helpfulness towards the needy that may come back to reward him or those he cares about when they are struck by disaster.

But in the case of my cult, there is no conceivable benefit to anybody for the maladies they endure.

Hell, even the actions of that guy who whipped the daylights out of himself in "The Da Vinci Code" make comparative sense to me, because at least in his mind (as I understood it), he was ritually cleansing himself of the stains of his sins, thereby making him more eligible to enter heaven. If you don't believe in heaven and hell, or in absolution through physical punishment, you might say that this behavior was absurd, but at least we can understand how it makes sense in the character's mind.

Yet the motivations behind my cult's actions continue to elude me. There are no real benefits to the slights they endure, nor real deterrents against rejecting them. And if there are imagined benefits or deterrents, I am yet to discover them. So I suspect that I might have to buckle down and invent some. :p
 
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ThinkerX

Myth Weaver
* They worship grotesque idols that are imbued with a dark magic. Exposure to these idols causes mild pain and distress, and this effect becomes more pronounced the longer one is exposed to it. Despite the fact that these idols are noxious objects, their darkness is static, and it could easily be avoided by removing the idols from the settlement or even destroying them. The idols do not "contain" the darkness per se; destroying them will destroy the darkness, not set it free to wreak greater havoc. The idols have the detrimental effects I have mentioned and they have no beneficial aspects. The cult can't even weaponize the darkness to use against their enemies. Yet despite this, the cult insists on worshipping these dark, unpleasant things that do them only harm and no good.

Duress isn't a factor either. There's no wrathful god above who will punish them if they don't worship the idols. There is no reason why they shouldn't dispose of these idols. But instead, they do the exact opposite.

* The cult is in the midst of severe poverty. There is god in their pantheon who is known to bestow prosperity and he is worshipped and well-regarded. Yet his rituals - the acts that actually incur the prosperity - are not practiced at all. My main characters probe this issue a bit and discover that the cult actually has an aversion to these rituals. Also, many of the rituals of the principal god they worship actually counteract any effect these other rituals might have. It's almost as if they endeavour to protect themselves against this lesser god (i.e. the prosperity god), despite the fact that they regard him well and do not fear him.

Perhaps a real life anecdote might help. Ether. Way back when, the common (protestant) Christian notion was that humans were meant to suffer. Things that relieved this suffering, short of crippling injury, were seen as signs of weakness. The use of ether during surgery was initially kept quiet for this very reason.

Hence, a possible motive into your cults behavior - they, or their ancestors did something, or believed they did something, and deserve torment in return as 'just punishment.'
 
When it comes to religion, it's easy to believe that a community could adhere to the beliefs of their ancestors and not want to question them. If they are raised to believe a certain way, it can take a lot to make them believe differently. The question then becomes how the beliefs came about in the first place. Maybe the idols were helpful in some way in the ancient past, and lost their value over time. Maybe someone wanted power and got it by deceiving others, perhaps crediting the idols for some highly fortuitous event and then proclaiming himself the representative of the idols. Or maybe there was a great earthquake that toppled everything except the idols, so they obviously were something special. I'm sure you can think of many more possibilities if you try.

If I were writing the story, I'd want to know the explanation behind the behavior, as it would inform my writing, even if I didn't explicitly state the reason in the text.
 
Perhaps a real life anecdote might help. Ether. Way back when, the common (protestant) Christian notion was that humans were meant to suffer. Things that relieved this suffering, short of crippling injury, were seen as signs of weakness. The use of ether during surgery was initially kept quiet for this very reason.

Hence, a possible motive into your cults behavior - they, or their ancestors did something, or believed they did something, and deserve torment in return as 'just punishment.'

Food for thought. "Original sin" doesn't exist in my world, but you've certainly given me a basis that I might be able to build upon. I shall have to think more on why they might believe that the suffering is a due they need to pay.

When it comes to religion, it's easy to believe that a community could adhere to the beliefs of their ancestors and not want to question them. If they are raised to believe a certain way, it can take a lot to make them believe differently. The question then becomes how the beliefs came about in the first place. Maybe the idols were helpful in some way in the ancient past, and lost their value over time. Maybe someone wanted power and got it by deceiving others, perhaps crediting the idols for some highly fortuitous event and then proclaiming himself the representative of the idols. Or maybe there was a great earthquake that toppled everything except the idols, so they obviously were something special. I'm sure you can think of many more possibilities if you try.

If I were writing the story, I'd want to know the explanation behind the behavior, as it would inform my writing, even if I didn't explicitly state the reason in the text.

I had considered this; the ingrained upbringing/tradition factor. But it just didn't seem like such a simple explanation would suit this cult. In my mind, they feel a bit more "free thinking" than this. Free thinking enough to reevalute a tradition if they find it isn't working for them and likewise free thinking enough to be sceptical of what their elders taught them to believe.

I feel like these people really do have their reasons for what they do and they are their reasons, not just their ancestors'. Only problem is, I don't know what those reasons are. :p
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
Why did you invent these things in the first place? Did you come up with one bizarre belief, then another then another, then decide these people are nuts? Or did you decide first to create a people who were (to outsiders) crazy, then fill in with these details?

And, what plot role do these beliefs play, either in a specific story or in your larger world narrative? In particular, why not just have them have more or less normal beliefs and behaviors? Or why not start with beliefs *you* understand, even though your characters at first misunderstand?

I'm struggling to understand the relationship between you as author, and this particular bit of world building.
 
Have you ever considered taking this cult out of the story, giving any roles they have within the plot to other existing characters or by replacing them with more acceptable characters? I'm not suggesting that's the solution you should go for, but just seeing what it would be like without them might give you another perspective and if you find it works, then you should try it out.
 
Have you ever considered taking this cult out of the story, giving any roles they have within the plot to other existing characters or by replacing them with more acceptable characters? I'm not suggesting that's the solution you should go for, but just seeing what it would be like without them might give you another perspective and if you find it works, then you should try it out.

No, because they are too integral. They serve as the backstory for one of my primary characters and they generally play several important roles throughout the story, and in at least 2 such cases, it's important that it is the same tribe/cult as before that the story harkens back to.

Why did you invent these things in the first place? Did you come up with one bizarre belief, then another then another, then decide these people are nuts? Or did you decide first to create a people who were (to outsiders) crazy, then fill in with these details?
Excellent question! I guess it was sort of a bit of both. I started out knowing that I would have a cult playing this major role, then in the course of trying to define them I had ideas for practices that soon failed the "logic test", and from this I got the idea of the cult being incomprehensible and the intrigue this aspect could bring to the story when other characters have to deal with them.
And, what plot role do these beliefs play, either in a specific story or in your larger world narrative? In particular, why not just have them have more or less normal beliefs and behaviors? Or why not start with beliefs *you* understand, even though your characters at first misunderstand?

I'm struggling to understand the relationship between you as author, and this particular bit of world building.
I briefly mentioned earlier that certain aspects of this cults' worship are toxic? Well, to sum up, that toxicity spills out and affects others who are not members of the cult, and so it falls to these aggrieved people to try and come up with some way of solving these problems and in the course of this struggle, find themselves being mystified by why the cult cultivates this toxicity in the first place.

I feel they need to be incomprehensible, at least to the main characters, because that is one of the major themes of the story - that sense of being lost when you find yourself having to deal with people you just simply can't understand.

But you are right, pressing the reset button and reinventing the cult's eccentricity so that I understand it is indeed an option. One that I might need to take.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
>they need to be incomprehensible, at least to the main characters

This is the crux of it, imo. Have it be incomprehensible--repulsive, shocking, or even more complicated like having parts be weirdly alluring while other parts are repulsive and still others are simply bizarre. Have it be all those things to the characters.

But not to you. You know the secrets. You are the Rosetta Stone for this culture. As your characters begin to understand the reasons (they don't have to be "good" reasons), then so will the reader. If you have different characters react in somewhat different ways, then you give the reader the chance to choose--not how they react, for that will simply happen, but with which character they will identify in their reactions.

In my first reading of your posts, I was reacting more as if the behaviors were incomprehensible to anyone, that they did not make sense and would not make sense. That troubled me, so I probably went off on a tangent there.
 
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