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The world known as Noches.

TheKillerBs

Maester
Sanderson's first law is about solving plot problems. It applies to the characters, not the world. The criticism of magic to handwave away stuff that makes this world go round seems a tad silly to me. So there's some unexplained force that keeps the temperature livable, allows for plants to photosynthesise, etc. Okay, fine, let's just call it magic and be done with it. Let's move on to the story, shall we? Now, if you start trying to pseudoscience your way out, then people who know about the topic will get jarred out of the story.
 

Vaporo

Inkling
Sanderson's first law is about solving plot problems. It applies to the characters, not the world. The criticism of magic to handwave away stuff that makes this world go round seems a tad silly to me. So there's some unexplained force that keeps the temperature livable, allows for plants to photosynthesise, etc. Okay, fine, let's just call it magic and be done with it. Let's move on to the story, shall we? Now, if you start trying to pseudoscience your way out, then people who know about the topic will get jarred out of the story.

True, but I think that it is applicable to world building as well. If everything in the world only works "cuz magic" with no explanation or apparent consistency, then that's just as bad as writing your characters into a corner and giving them a new nonsensical power just so that they can escape.
 

TheKillerBs

Maester
I'd argue that you should only bother with it in worldbuilding if it's directly relevant to the plot. If it isn't, spend the absolute minimum with it. There's a whole host of other, more important, issues you could spend your time and effort tackling.

ETA: Also, every time I see Sanderson's laws brought up, I always try to remember the zeroth law: Err on the side of awesome.
 

Froboy69

Dreamer
I'd argue that you should only bother with it in worldbuilding if it's directly relevant to the plot. If it isn't, spend the absolute minimum with it. There's a whole host of other, more important, issues you could spend your time and effort tackling.

Not really important in the plot; I mean, naturally you'll see common instances where the reader understands the world bit by bit because of a particular occurrence, but that's it. As of now, the mysteries of how this world is because of something isn't of importance to the plot.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
Hello everyone.

I have been following the thread, and just decided that it's a good moment to make a post. There is no need for wrath from the staff, but I do think that it's a good idea to post a reminder of the Mythic Scribes Forum Guidelines here.

It is of particular importance to be as respectful of other members as possible, and avoid any exchange of messages charged with degrading, snide or derisive comments.

Froboy: I think that the surreal and truly magical nature of your Noches world is really great. This style of things in a setting reminds me a lot of some of my own surreal Fantasy settings, where there are things like worlds in the shape of islands that float in an endless sea and have moons of their own.

I love stuff like that.

My advice to you is that you need to let it be what it is. There is no need for it to be scientifically accurate or plausible, and actually I think that you would ruin it if you made it more realistic. Sure that some Fantasy stories need realistic and believable worlds, but others do well with the surreal and there are plenty of people that love this kind of thing.

In case that you need any help with the language, I would be happy to assist you.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
There are different types of fantasy novels, some of which adhere to fairly stringent world-building rules and some which are purely fantastic and don't concern themselves with fitting the magic or fantasy of the world within any sort of rules-based framework.

Ever read The Girl Who Circumnavigated Fairy Land in a Ship of Her Own Making? That's one example. What about Howl's Moving Castle? The moving abode of Howl is an engineering nightmare that wouldn't hold up to even a cursory scientific/engineering analysis. Look at works in the 'new weird' category of fantasy, or the details of the worlds/multiverse in the Elric Books, or what is going on half the time in Dying Earth stories, or in the myriad of gaming-related titles in D&D, WH40K, etc. Much of it doesn't make a lick of sense if you try to force rational thought or rules-based world creation on it. Tolkien?

You CAN have a rules-based, logical fantasy world, of course. That's a subset of fantasy and perfectly legitimate. But there are also plenty of fantasy novels where bizarre, impossible worlds just exist and are within the context of the story. Also perfectly plausible. Sometimes heavy criticism of the latter comes from a failure to understand what sort of work the author is writing, or a desire to paint subjective preferences as objective requirements.
 

Froboy69

Dreamer
Hello everyone.

I have been following the thread, and just decided that it's a good moment to make a post. There is no need for wrath from the staff, but I do think that it's a good idea to post a reminder of the Mythic Scribes Forum Guidelines here.

It is of particular importance to be as respectful of other members as possible, and avoid any exchange of messages charged with degrading, snide or derisive comments.

Froboy: I think that the surreal and truly magical nature of your Noches world is really great. This style of things in a setting reminds me a lot of some of my own surreal Fantasy settings, where there are things like worlds in the shape of islands that float in an endless sea and have moons of their own.

I love stuff like that.

My advice to you is that you need to let it be what it is. There is no need for it to be scientifically accurate or plausible, and actually I think that you would ruin it if you made it more realistic. Sure that some Fantasy stories need realistic and believable worlds, but others do well with the surreal and there are plenty of people that love this kind of thing.

In case that you need any help with the language, I would be happy to assist you.


Of course. I was just under the impression that the criticism was too vague and not justifiable; I've experienced cases where someone would criticize my work without actually giving reasonable points/flaws and is simply there just to find a reason to dislike the idea while being close-minded. That type of criticism irritates me. However I changed my mind after I got a more detailed explanation to what they saw as an issue. All is well now.

Yes it doesn't have to be realistic but I find it fun when it's easy to imagine and give more to the imagination itself hence my decision to add these factors~

Also, I would love help in the future~


Thank you!
 

Froboy69

Dreamer
There are different types of fantasy novels, some of which adhere to fairly stringent world-building rules and some which are purely fantastic and don't concern themselves with fitting the magic or fantasy of the world within any sort of rules-based framework.

Ever read The Girl Who Circumnavigated Fairy Land in a Ship of Her Own Making? That's one example. What about Howl's Moving Castle? The moving abode of Howl is an engineering nightmare that wouldn't hold up to even a cursory scientific/engineering analysis. Look at works in the 'new weird' category of fantasy, or the details of the worlds/multiverse in the Elric Books, or what is going on half the time in Dying Earth stories, or in the myriad of gaming-related titles in D&D, WH40K, etc. Much of it doesn't make a lick of sense if you try to force rational thought or rules-based world creation on it. Tolkien?

You CAN have a rules-based, logical fantasy world, of course. That's a subset of fantasy and perfectly legitimate. But there are also plenty of fantasy novels where bizarre, impossible worlds just exist and are within the context of the story. Also perfectly plausible. Sometimes heavy criticism of the latter comes from a failure to understand what sort of work the author is writing, or a desire to paint subjective preferences as objective requirements.


Very insightful, thank you so much.
 

Russ

Istar
I am not sure what the OP is looking for out of this thread, but allow me to explain my concern on the issue that has been bounced around above. My concern is about what tone is set and what is delivered on the promises. I apologize for the length of this post but I don't have time to edit it properly.

I read the whole first post in detail and this jumped out at me:

Ruiz thought about the correct order that was needed for him to properly explain. “There are sixty seconds in a minute, sixty minutes in an hour, thirteen hours for Night and thirteen hours for True Night. Thus making a total of twenty-six hours in a ‘whole night’. Every hour, natural water in the world changes color in a certain order. Thus, we tend to keep water in glass containers reflecting ‘real time’. We’re able to tell minutes by sensing the cycle in water with basic magic. How we view it varies from living being to living being.
“For an entire moon cycle, The Moon carries a colored ‘shadow hue’, which lasts for twenty-five Nights, and will convert into a different color afterwards. There is a total of fourteen cycles that make up a ‘blue cycle’. Thus, a complete blue moon is considered as the mark for an entire year. The Moon becomes completely blue in this process instead of just its hue, and this will not occur again until fourteen cycles later.” Ruiz sighed heavily after finishing the long explanation.

I thought to myself: "This is simply awesome. This dude put some serious work into designing this world and done the hard work and is going to give a tight world." (leaving aside that it sounds like an info-dump in a prologue. I liked the "hard" done set in that paragraph very much. I would read and enjoy a book with that kind of detail and deep thought.

Then later I read:
Aside from the magic system that we all carry, it's not uncommon for eye color and hair color to be influence by magic; one could have dark green hair and orange eyes just because...

This gives me the reverse feel from the first paragraph quoted. Later I learn that the writer has solved all of the problems posed by a world of darkness by simply saying "magic" is the solution. That is a totally different feel from the first paragraph which is so precise and shows a writer who has wrestled a serious problem to the ground and pinned it mercilessly. The first quote sets a tone of a book where there are strict world building rules adhered to, the idea "magic" solves all problems sets a different tone.

Now I know nothing about your story or its goals (other than to explore non-european cultures which I think is a great idea, I have read some great Caribbean based fantastical work and I love it) so I can't tell you which tone suits your goals better, but I think you should probably use one of those tones rather than both.
 
Fantasy is not the place for "X is impossible because..." "You can't do X because..." If those statements held any power here fantasy wouldn't be a thing.

"Cuz magic" is a perfectly acceptable reason for something. Heck, you don't need a reason at all.

However...

A lot depends on the kind of story you're trying to tell. All fantasy is not alike. What purpose does your magic serve? Your answer to that question will affect how you should handle magic. If you're going for wonder and whimsy, no explanation is needed. But, if you're building plotlines, races and cultures on this magic, then it will have to be a firmer foundation.

This is only to say that the magic has to be governed by rules and parameters...basically, we have to know its nature, what it can and cannot do. If your magic does whatever you want whenever you want it, the reader just sees that you're using it as a crutch for your story. But if it has a set of specific, consistent rules it follows, sometimes solving problems, sometimes creating them, it becomes a dynamic element of the story that deepens it and fleshes it out. Personally, I like your world and ideas, and I don't think you need worry about whether you "can" use them. It is a fantasy story. You make the rules.

Never, ever let anyone tell you that you "can't" do something, or that your ideas are illegitimate. Fantasy does not have those limits. Anything is possible if you can do it well.
 

Froboy69

Dreamer
I am not sure what the OP is looking for out of this thread, but allow me to explain my concern on the issue that has been bounced around above. My concern is about what tone is set and what is delivered on the promises. I apologize for the length of this post but I don't have time to edit it properly.

I read the whole first post in detail and this jumped out at me:



I thought to myself: "This is simply awesome. This dude put some serious work into designing this world and done the hard work and is going to give a tight world." (leaving aside that it sounds like an info-dump in a prologue. I liked the "hard" done set in that paragraph very much. I would read and enjoy a book with that kind of detail and deep thought.

Then later I read:

This gives me the reverse feel from the first paragraph quoted. Later I learn that the writer has solved all of the problems posed by a world of darkness by simply saying "magic" is the solution. That is a totally different feel from the first paragraph which is so precise and shows a writer who has wrestled a serious problem to the ground and pinned it mercilessly. The first quote sets a tone of a book where there are strict world building rules adhered to, the idea "magic" solves all problems sets a different tone.

Now I know nothing about your story or its goals (other than to explore non-european cultures which I think is a great idea, I have read some great Caribbean based fantastical work and I love it) so I can't tell you which tone suits your goals better, but I think you should probably use one of those tones rather than both.


Oh yes, my remark about eye color and hair color was a bit lazy on my part hahaa. But I assure you that I've taken steps to avoid that.

Thank you though, as you're right that I shouldn't make magic the solution to everything nor should I make it as a "Get out of jail free card". Personally, I went in the matter of the first paragraph which is in the story itself. I had to promise myself that using magic itself needed rules. Otherwise it would be "broken"...

But I will tell you this: it was hard for me to decide on the condition/rules of magic through every angle...but no spoilers~
 
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Froboy69

Dreamer
Fantasy is not the place for "X is impossible because..." "You can't do X because..." If those statements held any power here fantasy wouldn't be a thing.

"Cuz magic" is a perfectly acceptable reason for something. Heck, you don't need a reason at all.

However...

A lot depends on the kind of story you're trying to tell. All fantasy is not alike. What purpose does your magic serve? Your answer to that question will affect how you should handle magic. If you're going for wonder and whimsy, no explanation is needed. But, if you're building plotlines, races and cultures on this magic, then it will have to be a firmer foundation.

This is only to say that the magic has to be governed by rules and parameters...basically, we have to know its nature, what it can and cannot do. If your magic does whatever you want whenever you want it, the reader just sees that you're using it as a crutch for your story. But if it has a set of specific, consistent rules it follows, sometimes solving problems, sometimes creating them, it becomes a dynamic element of the story that deepens it and fleshes it out. Personally, I like your world and ideas, and I don't think you need worry about whether you "can" use them. It is a fantasy story. You make the rules.

Never, ever let anyone tell you that you "can't" do something, or that your ideas are illegitimate. Fantasy does not have those limits. Anything is possible if you can do it well.

You're definitely right. I was actually embarrassed with my first draft because I forgot about taking that into consideration. :cold:

I think that conditions are the most important factor when it comes to manipulating reality...that being said, I do wonder how I will decide the "faith" of this world; I may have been a little vague about this, but I've considered making the protagonist question the necessary of magic itself.

Not really "spoiling", but I find it more interesting to make the protagonist begin to think outside the box to a certain degree.
 

R.H. Smith

Minstrel
This is awesome! Born and raised in Puerto Rico, I had never thought to do something like that. Kudos to you my latin brother. You have all my support, and if you have any questions regarding Caribbean culture, society, Taino indians, anything, let me know. :)
 

Froboy69

Dreamer
This is awesome! Born and raised in Puerto Rico, I had never thought to do something like that. Kudos to you my latin brother. You have all my support, and if you have any questions regarding Caribbean culture, society, Taino indians, anything, let me know. :)


Thank you man. Luckily for me I grew up in Miami so I do have knowledge of the Caribbean but I'll gladly take any help!
 
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