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Prologue, yay or nay?

Is there a phobia involving prologues? The irrational dislike of anything labeled prologue, heh heh.

When the dislike is based on five decades of reading, I wouldn't think the word "irrational" appropriate. But as I've been saying, I do think it to be psychological in nature, so "phobia" might not be quite right but not too far off base either.

It's like with kale. My wife wants me to eat more of it, but I've eaten too much of it already, and all she has to do is mention the word, and I automatically want nothing to do with it. She cooked something containing ground kale recently, and I enjoyed the entrée just fine. She told me after the fact that kale was in it, and I was like, cool, I ate kale and liked it.

If the author doesn't call it a prologue, I could be fine with their opening material. They call it a prologue, and they've already asked me to balk at reading it. Not every reader is like me, but some are. I'm not the only one. Some of those readers will read the book anyway. Some of those readers will not give the book a chance. A book having a prologue labeled as such does not automatically stop me from reading it, but it's a huge strike against it, and what author wants to start out a relationship with a new reader with an automatic strike? Actually, it's more like two automatic strikes; one more, and you're out. Is it fair that some readers are this way? Not really. To change how these readers react to prologues, authors need to write good ones, when they write them. In the meantime, I'm not going to use them in my writing.

Just wanted to clarify that that isn't what I said. Only the reason why neither is good or bad is what is similar, not the concepts. They are both tools, and tools aren't good or bad, only the way they're used is.

Go back and closely read your earlier posts on this thread, and you'll see why I thought you were talking about concepts....
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
FifthView's memory is better than mine. That opening is indeed prologue, according to my own measure.
 

Incanus

Auror
@Michael--OK, I re-read my posts, but I don't see why you would think I was saying paragraphs and prologues are the same thing. That's all right, I'll chalk it up to communication breakdown.

I'm curious where all these good books with terrible info-dumpy prologues can be found. I have hundreds of fantasy books on my bookshelves and have been reading the genre non-stop since the late 70's. I may be wrong but I don't think I own any books with info-dump prologues; I'll try to find one. It's a mystery to me...
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
There are some comments from agents at the link, below, regarding backstory, prologues, and infodumps. Some of these quotes could apply equally well to first chapters as prologues. I think the fact that the agents have taken time to mention these specific issues highlights how often they see problems in submissions that run along these lines.

There is more at the link. Somewhat tangential to the discussion here, but certainly related.
-------------------

“I’m not a fan of prologues, preferring to find myself in the midst of a moving plot on page one rather than being kept outside of it, or eased into it.”
– Michelle Andelman, Regal Literary


“Most agents hate prologues. Just make the first chapter relevant and well written.”
– Andrea Brown, Andrea Brown Literary Agency


“Prologues are usually a lazy way to give back-story chunks to the reader and can be handled with more finesse throughout the story. Damn the prologue, full speed ahead!”
– Laurie McLean, Foreword Literary

“Many writers express the character’s backstory before they get to the plot. Good writers will go back and cut that stuff out and get right to the plot. The character’s backstory stays with them — it’s in their DNA.”
– Adam Chromy, Movable Type Management


“I’m turned off when a writer feels the need to fill in all the backstory before starting the story; a story that opens on the protagonist’s mental reflection of their situation is a red flag.”
– Stephany Evans, FinePrint Literary Management


“One of the biggest problems is the ‘information dump’ in the first few pages, where the author is trying to tell us everything we supposedly need to know to understand the story. Getting to know characters in a story is like getting to know people in real life. You find out their personality and details of their life over time.”
– Rachelle Gardner, Books & Such Literary

How to Start Your Novel: Advice From Literary Agents
 
Prologues are neither good nor bad in the same way that the concept of paragraphs are neither good nor bad.

The concept of a prologue is far different than the concept of a paragraph.

Just wanted to clarify that that isn't what I said. Only the reason why neither is good or bad is what is similar, not the concepts.

Go back and closely read your earlier posts on this thread, and you'll see why I thought you were talking about concepts....

@Michael--OK, I re-read my posts, but I don't see why you would think I was saying paragraphs and prologues are the same thing. That's all right, I'll chalk it up to communication breakdown.

Is my perspective clearer now?
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Warning: let's not make things personal. That makes unicorns cry.

476075454_73060fa9c3.jpg
 

Incanus

Auror
Funny. This subject seems to cause a near-endless comedy of confusions.

If agents and publishers are rejecting these kinds of prologues, or making sure they're fixed before publishing, then why the need to skip prologues of published books, where, apparently, these issues have already been dealt with?

At first I thought we were talking about published books, but now we're talking about novels submitted to agents and publishers?

In any event, I can fully acknowledge that prologues are frowned upon without actually understanding the reasons why.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Funny. This subject seems to cause a near-endless comedy of confusions.

If agents and publishers are rejecting these kinds of prologues, or making sure they're fixed before publishing, then why the need to skip prologues of published books, where, apparently, these issues have already been dealt with?

At first I thought we were talking about published books, but now we're talking about novels submitted to agents and publishers?

In any event, I can fully acknowledge that prologues are frowned upon without actually understanding the reasons why.

One editor I spoke with suggested pitching the novel without the prologue, and then if you really felt strongly about having one, arguing over it once they've already agreed to take on the book. Though if it is pitched and accepted without one, maybe that's an indication you don't need it?
 
I'd hazard a guess and say that prologues should either be the hook for the story or at least should have a hook. In any case, the same things we'd consider doing in order to make the first chapter engaging should be considered when writing the prologue.

Also: Just as first chapters can establish character, setting, tone, whatever, a prologue can deliver important worldbuilding and character info without being an info dump. So yeah, prologues can be considered for the purposes of establishing some things about the story. But they need to be engaging and not merely there to dump that info on a reader.
 

Incanus

Auror
I'd hazard a guess and say that prologues should either be the hook for the story or at least should have a hook. In any case, the same things we'd consider doing in order to make the first chapter engaging should be considered when writing the prologue.

Also: Just as first chapters can establish character, setting, tone, whatever, a prologue can deliver important worldbuilding and character info without being an info dump. So yeah, prologues can be considered for the purposes of establishing some things about the story. But they need to be engaging and not merely there to dump that info on a reader.

This makes perfect sense to me. Of the books in my collection that use prologues (with or without the term), the overwhelming majority accomplish something like this. And this is why I don't understand people's attitudes towards them. There's something of a gap between what people are saying are in prologues, and what are actually in prologues. I can't help but be more interested in the latter.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
A little late with this warning. Things got personal back on post #24.

We can agree to disagree on that score. Regardless of viewpoints on the history of the thread, I'm asking now that everyone simply get back on topic and discuss the subject matter of the thread without having to make personal comments regarding the individuals involved. To that end, let us now consider this matter closed and move on with the substantive discussion.

My thanks.
 

Alyssa

Troubadour
When you're working in a complex world with an unreliable narrator, I have found that prologues can be quite helpful (even short single page prologues) in setting the general scene and feel of the book as well as pointing out important things that might not have otherwise been noted by your MC...

It's important though to tie it in tightly and seeing as it is always going to be dumping a little info, you need to fill in with hooks and hints and leads.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Aurora

Sage
Hmmmm, I would have agreed with Fifthview that chapter one of HP was a prologue. It was from the perspective of Mr. Dursley and showed his contempt for the infant Harry.
I disagree. That was omniscient narrator, not a prologue, which is why it was written from his perspective.
 

Gribba

Troubadour
I have to admit I did not expect some of the comments here. :eek:

I am one of those people that just is unable to skip anything, I have to read it ALL!!! :D
I have read prologues that make me shake my head and wonder why it was there but also read once that are just brilliant so I feel neutral when it comes to those. So I think I am a bit more like Mytherea when it comes to prologues.


I am surprised that there are actually people that drop it, i thought at least scanning it quickly, was a must.
Reading the comments as to why some people do not read the prologue, is so interesting to me. I can see, that for some it is due to practical reasons that the prologue is not read, understandable. I find it very interesting how the prologue can be perceived as something so negative as this:
...
I feel as though a prologue is the author's way of saying one of two things, both being somewhat evil. One thing the prologue might be saying is, okay, reader, I know you aren't very smart, so let me tell you some things up front so you don't have to figure them out yourself while reading the rest of the story. The other thing the prologue might be saying is that the author feels incapable of making the story understandable without the prologue. In short, the presence of a prologue is an indication to me that either the author views me, the reader, as dumb, or the author feels inept.
....
The conventional wisdom on prologues in the publishing industry, is that, with the exception of limited specific purposes, prologues are not well appreciated.
[...]
They delay getting into the story, they delay connecting the the protagonist, they are often info dumps, they are often poorly executed etc.
I might also argue, that perhaps the reason so many people skip them, is due somewhat to an earned reputation.
These comments made me think about the prologues, that I do not really remember so much anymore or just found odd, as they did not make any impact on the book, I can see how it might end up being seen in such negative light, when it happens again and again.


The thing about a prologue is that it creates a delay in getting to the actual story. It delays the hook, and that's not to the advantage of either reader or writer. If it doesn't delay the hook, then is it actually a prologue, or is it rather chapter one?
This I find very interesting, can a hook be in the prologue or is it chapter one... In The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson, the prologue has much info about the world but also a hook that is important part for the story as it happens years later (don't remember how many years later) and now I sit and question if it could have been chapter one?
I need to read that one again. :confused:

The last wish by Andrzej Sapkowski has this thing called 'The voice of reason' that appears between the stories in the book, and could be seen as prologues before each short story (the book is a collection of short stories taking place before the main Witcher Saga) but those short text are continuing a story as well, so what are they then? (In Blood of Elves he has not included any prologue or 'The voice of reason' that he used before). I have seen a similar use of short texts/prologues before each chapter before (don't remember right now what books it was), they were just called something else, are they then also a tool that has a bad rep or seen in more of a positive light?


One typical reason can be: If a prologue is basically a chapter one, it can be called prologue as an indicator that the main character is not involved in this chapter, since there is often the expectation that chapter 1 is the intro to the MC. Can be plenty of reasons, this is one off top of my head.
Prologues are tools. There's a right time to use them and a wrong time.
...Game of Thrones uses a prologue that sets up the White Walkers, the Nights Watch, the Wildlings, and probably the true overarching story of the series, Westeros vs. the White Walkers.
[...]
Without the prologue, the "deserter" is just a deserter. The White Walkers are just fables. And Ned isn't flawed, and the world is fair and just, instead of what it really is.
When you're working in a complex world with an unreliable narrator, I have found that prologues can be quite helpful (even short single page prologues) in setting the general scene and feel of the book as well as pointing out important things that might not have otherwise been noted by your MC...

It's important though to tie it in tightly and seeing as it is always going to be dumping a little info, you need to fill in with hooks and hints and leads.
I think these are good points to keep in mind.


In every argument I've seen against them here and elsewhere, it is BAD WRITING or POOR DECISION MAKING that is being argued against, not prologues directly. Is there an argument that explains why prologues are inherently bad that doesn't point to poor technique as the cause? That's something I'd be interested in hearing.
Good question but can it be evaluated without looking at, if it is bad writing or poor decision making, is there something else to judge it by and what? Are prologues talking down to the reader and/or info-dumping or something else that gets the negative reaction that it seem to have on some people?
And what makes a good/great prologue (for you)?


I think the question is less about whether or not prologues should be used but more about when to use them.
[...]
So in my opinion, the best way to use prologues is to create a sense of mystery and have the reader asking how does this relate to the rest of the story? If a prologue doesn't make me want to know what's going on, then its failed for me. If the payoff is a letdown, then its failed for me. But that's just my opinion.

I think your opinion on what prologues have to bring to the table is a good one, I like how you have some expectations but not contemning it beforehand (contemning might be a harsh word but I mean it in a mild way).


:grouphug:
 
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