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What is off-limits?

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Deleted member 5759

Guest
I imagine this topic has come up before (if so, please pardon the redundancy). My favorite dark fantasy book of all time is McNaughton's Throne of Bones. Those who are in agreement have described the work as a [paraphrase] "nightmare carnival ride."
In the twenty years since its publication, despite winning the World Fantasy Award, it has sadly remained in obscurity. I can't help but polish its accolades a bit more - - the dang thing even has a glowing afterword by S.T Joshi; one of the most brutal reviewers of all-time.
Anyhow, I have researched the reactions, and it seems that a lot people (card-carrying members of dark fantasy's readership) are turned off by the disturbing subject matter.
My question... if it isn't obvious.. is what do you feel is off-limits in the realms of horror and dark fantasy? Why? And there is a third question begging to be asked last (which my all means ignore if my suspicion is correct that its just me being frustrated)... why on earth would readers pick up a book that is supposed to be rife with the prowling undead... then be turned off by the book doing its job?
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
Don't know about the undead. I suppose if the book were doing its job it would not be turning people off.

I am a horror movie aficionado, but I do get turned off by two things, one its just trying to be gross, or two, all they got is a cat jumping out or birds fluttering away. Get me to where the horror is really essential and telling the story, and I am huge fan. I fear that in writing the same thing is true. Graphic description of horror and gore which equate to not much more than gory porn, well, I'll see through that and move on.

Off limits though...meh, is there such a thing? But if you get me to say 'once read, it cant be unread', and say that in a bad way, I wont be coming back.
 
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Deleted member 5759

Guest
Don't know about the undead. I suppose if the book were doing its job it would not be turning people off.

I am a horror movie aficionado, but I do get turned off by two things, one its just trying to be gross, or two, all they got is a cat jumping out or birds fluttering away. Get me to where the horror is really essential and telling the story, and I am huge fan. I fear that in writing the same thing is true. Graphic description of horror and gore which equate to not much more than gory porn, well, I'll see through that and move on.

Off limits though...meh, is there such a thing? But if you get me to say 'once read, it cant be unread', and say that in a bad way, I wont be coming back.

Very good points. Thank you! I agree completely re gross to be gross. In fact, it's possible the "slop it on" tactic is both the cause and effect of/for the lack of real psychological horror seen in the days that were, well, pre-SAW.

Anyhow, Off-limits in books: I can say I have seen submission guidelines asking to do without certain criminal acts. A friend in the book biz once told me that writers can go too far at times-- granted he is in sales and is a real units-moved type. His analogy though really resonated with me however. Goes thus: people will rubberneck to see a pile-up on the freeway, but then puke when they see a bone sticking out of a driver's leg. For most genres, I get that. It just seems horror and DF is the safe haven for those of us who ... wouldn't puke.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Off-limits . . . . to who? (Whom? I forget.)

The question isn't about what's off-limits. There's a psychopath out there who will read anything. To me, the question is what kind of audience are you shooting for?

For horror, I would say there's a "sweet spot" if you're shooting for mass appeal, but if you'd rather aim for a smaller segment where it's less difficult to stand out, then the rules change for you. Some people like it darker than most.

Speaking loosely and in generalities like this, I would say you should forget this question and plan your story concept and lay out your structure around your strengths as a writer. If you're good going dark, then do that.

But first... you should figure out, honestly, if that's really what your strengths are, and develop those skills appropriately. As others have said, you want to take horror and gore beyond the basic shock value and figure out how to set it up effectively. So take your writing towards learning and developing and using those skills.
 
D

Deleted member 5759

Guest
Off-limits . . . . to who? (Whom? I forget.)

The question isn't about what's off-limits. There's a psychopath out there who will read anything. To me, the question is what kind of audience are you shooting for?

For horror, I would say there's a "sweet spot" if you're shooting for mass appeal, but if you'd rather aim for a smaller segment where it's less difficult to stand out, then the rules change for you. Some people like it darker than most.

Speaking loosely and in generalities like this, I would say you should forget this question and plan your story concept and lay out your structure around your strengths as a writer. If you're good going dark, then do that.

But first... you should figure out, honestly, if that's really what your strengths are, and develop those skills appropriately. As others have said, you want to take horror and gore beyond the basic shock value and figure out how to set it up effectively. So take your writing towards learning and developing and using those skills.

Awesome, thanks! Yeah, gratuitous anything is a big No No, and something I feel readers pick up on quite easily. Appreciate the guidance. Just to clarify, when referencing Throne of Bones, it hasn't been slop and gore that turned off the usual DF/Horror lover, from what I have found it has been more the stories themselves. An example I have encountered a few times is how no real hero emerges-- which cracks me up for some reason when coming from reader's who have macabre sensibilities.
Thanks again. Plenty to take away from in here.
 
Even though there are hypotheticals I could never find myself enjoying reading, I do not think any content is off limits. What is more important to me is what that content says about the author and what the author is attempting to say.

Two horror novels could have the same gruesome, violent scene but for one author I might say has a great understanding of horror while I’ll call the other exploitive. What seperates the scenes could be hoe they relate to the plot, gow characters react to it, and the tone in which it is written. It’s often something you can feel, it’s usually always subjective, and it’s often very hard to decide. Which is why it’s worth discussing it with other people.

There are more clearer lined though, like those relating to racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. A story in thr point of view of a racist doesn’t make the story or the author itself racist anf could mean the opposite. An example there would be Steven King’s IT, which very early on uses a deragatory word against a homosexual, which (not knowing much about King at the time) led me to stop reading and look into King’s views on homosexuality.

I feel though as long as your readers can understand the context of the story, those issues are easy to solve. If you feel it’s being taken out of context then perhaps you need to reevaluate how clear that context is within the story.

Harder issues are violence, particularly sexual violence. The more detail you put in there, the more the reader questions why you really wrote it. To me, the best way to solve this is to make sure excessive violence has weigh to it and that people are actually affected by it. If that violence reads as real then they’re struck with horror that the characters are going through it, then you’re doing your job because they won’t be struck with horror that you could actually come up with such scenes.

I would say my personal limits are writing sexual violence against children. That isn’t to say that such events can’t be in a story but to actually show the reader a scene like that just the worst thing ever. It makes everyone uncomfortable, you are taken out of the story and you immediately ask yourself what on earth was the writer thinking.
 
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Yora

Maester
Aside from hate speech and promoting violent crime, I think everything can morally and ethically justified to write about. But whether there's much of an audience for it is a different matter. Some things will just have a narrower appeal than others.
 

CupofJoe

Myth Weaver
My question... if it isn't obvious.. is what do you feel is off-limits in the realms of horror and dark fantasy?
Anything that is gratuitous and there to gross the reader out. Whatever is the literary equivalent to the cinematic jump-cut or blood hitting the lens. Also anything that is boring. Too much description of how any/something is done [that doesn't move the plot along] should be avoided. This is also why I try not to write sex scenes. I haven't read an engaging sex scene. I ready several [what I consider to be] well written seduction scenes...
I like Lovecraftian Horror. And most of the time there, it is left at vague descriptions and then "to hideous for the human mind to comprehend". The reader has to join the dots. Let the reader add the colour to the scene. Their imagination will work better.
And there is a third question begging to be asked last (which my all means ignore if my suspicion is correct that its just me being frustrated)... why on earth would readers pick up a book that is supposed to be rife with the prowling undead... then be turned off by the book doing its job?
They didn't like what they read. as for the WHY of that? That is in the eye/mind of the reader.
No book is loved [or even liked] by everyone who reads it. Not a horror tale but I have a friend that thinks "To kill a Mockingbird" was "boring...", as that is one of my favourite books I can't comprehend why someone would think that and I an certain that he is WRONG. But he isn't. He found it boring.
It is up to your audience to decide what is they want to read.
That said [almost certainly] there will be laws about obscenity in any market you try to publish.
What is defined as obscene will vary.
Some will be very restrictive on violence [especially to women], pornography, drug use, hate speech, gender, sexuality issues or political ideologies [I think it is still illegal to own/display a swastika in Germany, for any purpose - but I guess that Hindus and Buddhists find a way around this?!?].
Long ago I read a book that started with the gang rape of a [barely] teenage girl on a Cathedral's steps. Page 1 para 1.
It was a graphic, violent and very detailed rape but it was suitable [even needed] for the tone and content of the story being told. In another tale I might have put the book down and walked away... Admittedly I haven't reread this tale...
 

ascanius

Inkling
I've gone back and forth on this through the years. Now I'm of the opinion nothing should be off limits and I mean everything should be available to the author. However the how and why are what determines if it has value, in my opinion at least. If it's used to bring the reader to some deeper understanding about life or themselves kudos. If it's used to add color shame on them. Where the line is I don't yet know.

Edit: more thoughts

The thing is we will never truely capture the absolute horrors that humanity is capable of nor how it permeates the lives in both direct, indirect, large and small ways. It is what connects everyone, we have all experienced pain to varying degrees, more so than love or joy. I think that is what makes it so hard to write well. We ( the reader) know the truth, have felt pain, we know when it is being used dishonestly to bring forth a response.

We may seek out the danger, the threat of pain, it's exhilarating but we don't wish for the threat to become real nor the fear that comes with it. I think most readers expect this rule to be followed. It's an ever finer line to find the deeper you go into the darkness of the human soul. Child sexual abuse crosses that line because it is not something we can understand, know yes, understand definitely not. The why of it just doesn't make sense. See it's that incomprehensible unpredictablity that makes the fear of pain to real for the reader. Compare that to torture and we can understand (the all to real humanity of us all) the reasons, the motivation to torture, the why. It makes sense, though it too can make the fear to real.

If torture were portrayed without a why, think it too would cross the line. I think in the end what it comes down to is the act for it's own sake, torture for tortures sake etc.... When it's sensless when there is no why that we can understand. It makes it all to real.

Sorry I'm done musing.
 
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A. E. Lowan

Forum Mom
Leadership
I don't think that there are limits. Going in with limits hobbles the Muse before we even get started. I do, however, think that there is such a thing as good and bad taste. I'm not a huge horror fan, but I do write about horrific things. I just leave a lot of it to the reader's imagination and have events happen off screen. It insulates the reader, but I also think it gives them room to feel the impact of what I'm writing, not just sit there and be squeamish about what they just read. And there are some things, like sexual assault, which I do not believe belong on screen at all. I write about it rather a lot, but I never directly portray it. I see this as a responsibility toward those who have suffered it, to not write their nightmares large across the page.
 

ascanius

Inkling
I don't think that there are limits. Going in with limits hobbles the Muse before we even get started. I do, however, think that there is such a thing as good and bad taste. I'm not a huge horror fan, but I do write about horrific things. I just leave a lot of it to the reader's imagination and have events happen off screen. It insulates the reader, but I also think it gives them room to feel the impact of what I'm writing, not just sit there and be squeamish about what they just read. And there are some things, like sexual assault, which I do not believe belong on screen at all. I write about it rather a lot, but I never directly portray it.
This is all fine and even great but....

I see this as a responsibility toward those who have suffered it, to not write their nightmares large across the page.

I find this very demeaning and infintalizing. Deciding for them what they can and cannot handle is disrespectful to them and what they have gone through. It takes their power to choose for themselves away from them ( not in the same way but it's still choosing for them) They want to be treated just like anyone else not coddled.

If people choose not to write about such things for their own reasons that's fine but they shouldn't use others as the reason.

I understand why someone would want to do this but they are much stronger than they are given credit.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
Gross with lots of weeny adverbs... that gets me every time, heh heh.

I'm not a great person to ask, because I don't visualize scenes when I read... it's just words. I don't care. But other's who "see" the visuals they read I could see this being an issue. But I tend to agree, if you pick up a horror/dark fantasy I don't see the issue, LOL.
 

Yora

Maester
I find this very demeaning and infintalizing. Deciding for them what they can and cannot handle is disrespectful to them and what they have gone through. It takes their power to choose for themselves away from them ( not in the same way but it's still choosing for them) They want to be treated just like anyone else not coddled.
You can't really demand that something should not exist because there might be someone out there who has bad feelings about it. One reason is that this way you get to a point where you can't write about anything serious because everything can be distressing to someone. The other thing is that it's not even healthy for those people who might be affected. They need to get confirmation that the thought of the bad thing that is affecting them is not a threat to overcome their fear. If the society around them bends over backwards to avoid the mere thought of it ever being mentioned, then they are getting the impression that just thinking of it is a danger. That's not going to make them feel better, it's going to make them feel worse by confirming and increasing their anxieties. Books and movies can even be a way to face the issue in a way that is more abstract and removed from the reality, which can always be put down and turned off.
What is recommendable, and good writing advice in general, is to be upfront about what general direction the work is going to from the start. Audiences need to be able to steel themselves against what is coming and make a choice if they really want to be on board for the experience. Surprise is all nice and well, but nobody wants to be jumped by some horror out of total nowhere.
 
Inciting real world violence should be off limits.

Audiences need to be able to steel themselves against what is coming and make a choice if they really want to be on board for the experience. Surprise is all nice and well, but nobody wants to be jumped by some horror out of total nowhere.

And this is the reason a lot of horror sucks.
 

CupofJoe

Myth Weaver
If you are or think you are, writing something that others may find beyond the pale, then you had better get it right in as many ways as you can.
There is the technical aspect of how well it is written.
And how it works in the plot.
But is it "true" to what would really happen?
If a storyline has that someone is abused in some way, then learn what the consequences of the abuse may be. Not just the physical, but the emotional, psychological, relationship, and anything that can make the event and the consequences real.
But I think that is what we should all be doing in all our writing regardless of the content. Make it real - even if it is fantasy.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I imagine this topic has come up before (if so, please pardon the redundancy). My favorite dark fantasy book of all time is McNaughton's Throne of Bones. Those who are in agreement have described the work as a [paraphrase] "nightmare carnival ride."
In the twenty years since its publication, despite winning the World Fantasy Award, it has sadly remained in obscurity. I can't help but polish its accolades a bit more - - the dang thing even has a glowing afterword by S.T Joshi; one of the most brutal reviewers of all-time.
Anyhow, I have researched the reactions, and it seems that a lot people (card-carrying members of dark fantasy's readership) are turned off by the disturbing subject matter.
My question... if it isn't obvious.. is what do you feel is off-limits in the realms of horror and dark fantasy? Why? And there is a third question begging to be asked last (which my all means ignore if my suspicion is correct that its just me being frustrated)... why on earth would readers pick up a book that is supposed to be rife with the prowling undead... then be turned off by the book doing its job?

I bought Throne of Bones due to this thread. I’ve only read the first story. Yeah, it’s very good. Looking looking forward to the rest.
 

L. Blades

Dreamer
Even though there are hypotheticals I could never find myself enjoying reading, I do not think any content is off limits. What is more important to me is what that content says about the author and what the author is attempting to say.

Two horror novels could have the same gruesome, violent scene but for one author I might say has a great understanding of horror while I’ll call the other exploitive. What seperates the scenes could be hoe they relate to the plot, gow characters react to it, and the tone in which it is written. It’s often something you can feel, it’s usually always subjective, and it’s often very hard to decide. Which is why it’s worth discussing it with other people.

There are more clearer lined though, like those relating to racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. A story in thr point of view of a racist doesn’t make the story or the author itself racist anf could mean the opposite. An example there would be Steven King’s IT, which very early on uses a deragatory word against a homosexual, which (not knowing much about King at the time) led me to stop reading and look into King’s views on homosexuality.

I feel though as long as your readers can understand the context of the story, those issues are easy to solve. If you feel it’s being taken out of context then perhaps you need to reevaluate how clear that context is within the story.

Harder issues are violence, particularly sexual violence. The more detail you put in there, the more the reader questions why you really wrote it. To me, the best way to solve this is to make sure excessive violence has weigh to it and that people are actually affected by it. If that violence reads as real then they’re struck with horror that the characters are going through it, then you’re doing your job because they won’t be struck with horror that you could actually come up with such scenes.

I would say my personal limits are writing sexual violence against children. That isn’t to say that such events can’t be in a story but to actually show the reader a scene like that just the worst thing ever. It makes everyone uncomfortable, you are taken out of the story and you immediately ask yourself what on earth was the writer thinking.


Absolutely agree with evolution rex here, on all points. Many horror films can portray all kinds of horrific acts; some (most) do it in an almost comical, half-assed way that I would agree is exploitative, whereas a good horror film will truly try to capture the 'horror' aspect of it. I myself love watching horror films, mostly because the vast majority of them are so predictably crap I find them funny, but take the act of using a powered surgical bonesaw on a person; this is one thing I will struggle to watch as just the noise alone makes me feel slightly sick (which is difficult to do), but most films make this almost Juvenile. An excellent example of this act not being exploited is the film 'The Autopsy of Jane Doe', where this act was captured well, but also in good context.

As evolution rex says, it's the context that matters. I would also say that in the far-corner of things I would consider writing would be sexual violence against children, but that's not to say obviously it doesn't happen, therefore at most I would only included it in an 'acknowledgement that this happens' -kind of context, rather than attempt to depict it.
 
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