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900+ page epics

Azeroth

Dreamer
One of my writing goals is to write a series as immersive and as engrossing as Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, or Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn.

During my research across the internet, I came across on multiple occasions, that publishers are not interested in books that are long-winded. I.e, for any chance of a publisher to even look at your submission for more than two seconds, there has to be some action happening on the first page.

Anybody familiar with the Wheel of Time will know that it can take up to 300 pages before anything major happens!

A lot of sites also advised that in this day and age (due to everything being so frantic and fast-paced, leaving people with little time for themselves) that nobody has time to read long novels any more. (I can attest to this. I'm approximately 670 pages through the Fires of Heaven, which is 960 pages long. It has taken me close to two weeks to get this far, due to work commitments and other life-stuff).

Which brings me to the conclusion that due to modern day trends, the chances of hitting the market with a magnum opus is quite slim. The fans want something simple to read and full of action.

As a reader, I often lose interest in the "modern" format of literature. That is, the simple, James Patterson-like paragraphs and dialogue. I also find it a little tedious to open up a book that is smack bang in the middle of the action, with no time to introduce me to the characters and the setting.

Now, I know that Jordan is renowned for being a bit slow and writing too many info dumps. I personally don't mind the info dumps when it is to do with the complex lore he has created; I could do without pages of descriptions of what beige coloured dress a female char is wearing, or what anybody is wearing really (he puts a lot of time into describing what the lesser characters in the background wear as well) and I do agree that a lot of it should have been cut by the publisher (in fact I'm surprised they let him get away with it!)

Other advice I have gained in my journeys, is to write the story you want to read and forget everybody else's opinions. Perhaps I would be better off self-publishing, if market trends don't support this style any more.
 

TWErvin2

Auror
There are readers of epic novels, and even series containing epic novels. They can be a harder sell, and I think you are correct in that reader tastes have changed over the years. Often readers are not as patient with a new writers. With authors they have read before, they know that there will be a payoff for a slow build. Not so much with someone they are unfamiliar with.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
It's probably about twenty years since I read the Wheel of Time, but from what I can recall, there was an attack on Rand's village in one of the first few chapters of the story. It's not necessarily a major event, but it was exciting. I also don't recall how it actually began, but I believe it was something about Rand being out in the forest picking berries or so.

What I'm getting at here is that a hook isn't necessarily a major event.
It's just something that makes us care for or take interest in the character of the story. It doesn't have to be dramatic. It's still possible to be interesting without throwing in exploding dragons that shoots laser out of their eyes.

As for the length of novels, that's the kind of thing that varies by genre and by target audience.

Epic fantasy isn't out. It's just not where the biggest and easiest money is right now.

Writing a 900 page book is a massive undertaking. It can take years.
It's also something that can take a long time to read. If the book doesn't catch my interest during the first or second reading session, and if no one has told me that it's great, I'm likely to drop it. There are books out there that do catch my interest from the start, and I'd rather read one of those than a boring book that might get good after three hundred pages.

Again...
Good, doesn't have to be mindless non-stop action, it just needs to catch my interest and make me care for the story.
 
As a reader, I often lose interest in the "modern" format of literature. That is, the simple, James Patterson-like paragraphs and dialogue. I also find it a little tedious to open up a book that is smack bang in the middle of the action, with no time to introduce me to the characters and the setting.

This is me 100%. Or, let's say, 95%. If I force myself, i.e. commit to reading a book, I can get over that hump of opening a book and finding I'm smack dab in the middle of action from the beginning, and hopefully I'll become engrossed...eventually. If I can get past the point of wading into the POV of a character I do not know doing things that mean almost nothing to me, in those first pages. Also, I'm not a fan of "the simple, James Patterson-like paragraphs and dialogue." I don't think these are deal breakers for me, but they do inspire a heavy skepticism that I'll need to work past before I can become absorbed into the story.

I'm going to propose a radical POV. It seems to me that a lot of modern B-list writers have taken the wrong lessons from various successful books, distilling the methods used by successful writers into entirely wrong "rules." Altogether, it's a kind of pop-ification of fiction—to borrow from the music business. Am I the only one who experiences most modern pop music the same way as I experience these forays into so much modern pop fiction? "Begin in action," someone once noticed in some wildly successful book, and ever after we get the sort of stuff you seem to have singled out.

But Svrtnsse is on to something. Those other writers have distilled one type of hook, in one or a handful of successful novels, and mistakenly believed it is the only kind of hook. (Incidentally, this mistake also falls on the notion of "action." I'd rather use the word "activity," but that word probably doesn't wrap up the distinction.)

I think an epic—or, alternatively, very long novel, which is not necessarily the same thing as an epic—requires being able to engage the reader's interest not only from the very first, but continuously throughout. For me the primary question becomes a question circling this necessity. People are different, interests are different, so I'm hesitant to offer advice for how to do this engagement. The risk is creating a rule or list as simplistic and off-mark as the single dictum "Action!"

I can, however, offer myself as a metaphor, heh. The vast majority of my reading experiences, day-to-day, are non-fiction, not fiction. I'm particularly engaged by science articles and social science articles. Astronomy and archaeology more than technology—although I like reading about new technology too. History, cultural traditions, and humor capture my attention also. Beyond these, I find I'm often engaged by some unusual current events stories. In the last week or two, those have included the big college admissions scam the FBI uncovered in the U.S., and #eggboy in Australia, heh. Depending on my mood and what's happening in movies and television, I'm sometimes engaged by news and discussions about current movies or television programs.

In the midst of those major areas are a bunch of things that grab my interest intermittently. Oddball stories in the news; or at least, things I'm surprised to be encountering along the way, hah.

The point of this metaphor is that I can be quite engaged by true-life things. I don't need laser fights and dragon aerial battles—although those, too, can be quite interesting. If you were targeting me, then you might engage me for a lot of pages, maybe the whole book, if your story triggered my science, archaeology, cultural buttons while adding humor and suggesting the peculiar significance of peasant boys assaulting members of the elite class with eggs, heh. I'm also quite interested in philosophical and religious questions—although I don't currently read in that area as much as I once did—so having these areas of my brain triggered would probably help to keep me engaged.

These observations probably won't help anyone looking for a simple three-point checklist for their first novel. Action! Character Motivation and Goals! Obstacles/Conflict! There, that might help. :ROFLMAO:

I suppose having a shorter checklist might be fine enough for a shorter story but couldn't, alone, sustain a 900-page novel.
 

Futhark

Inkling
Which brings me to the conclusion that due to modern day trends, the chances of hitting the market with a magnum opus is quite slim. The fans want something simple to read and full of action.
You’re probably right. Busy people are happy with bite size chunks of news and entertainment. They read the headlines, not the article. Hell, even so-called journalists just regurgitate parts of a story, often without checking the facts. But trends change and there is always niche markets. When The Twilight Saga came out it seems that every two bit vampire story sitting on the slush pile was suddenly getting published. You just never know. Do what you love!
 
the thing about actiony, fast-paced beginnings, and stories in general, is they don't actually create more investment in the story or make me care more, and in fact can often make me care *less* by skimming past the little details that breathe life into a world and characters. when it's clear that the author is making everything as streamlined as possible, I lose interest. They end out cutting out the humanness from their works in favor of slam-bang-explodey stuff because it's "exciting" and the emotional/character-developing and world-building bits end up contrived and clipped

And yet, I've yet to read a 600+ page novel that strictly needed to be that long, or wouldn't have been probably better with a little cutting done to it, so it's a balance.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
Publishing side: 120k words is a real demarcation of prejudice. Jordan was published in the era of bigger is better, and trends change. So here’s the thing, I wrote Eve of Snows to about 130k, trimmed to 120k, went through an editir and rehit 150, trimmed back 125k for querying before deciding screw traditional publishing and re-edited to 140k, LOL.

Reactions? Some people think it takes off like a shot, some people have trouble getting into the multiple POV, some people tthink it starts slow and really gets going 1/3 or more through, some people think it’s short! But I’ve never heard it called it too long. Epic readers will read, if you can get them and make it worth their time.

The publishing industry (and therefore agents) are a different animal.

So, that said... EoS is 500 pages, book two could push 700, 600 minimum.
 
I think "Game of Thrones" solved this riddle by publishing a series. MASSIVE works, yet still relatively marketable to contemporary readers. (Yes, it took a very long time to tell 'the story', and tastes changed in the meanwhile... But if you told me 20 years ago that HBO would be picking it up as a series I would have probably laughed just a little.)

With a series, you still get to tell the 'epic' story you really want, you just have to figure out where to stop one book to pick up the next. Not the ideal when you want to publish something as big as say...War and Peace at one go, but still a viable option.

Otherwise, I'm in the 'write whatever however you want' crowd. Formatting might be a editor's or publisher's headache later, but your focus should first be on telling the story you really want to tell. In it's entirety. If your work never meets the limitations for submission guidelines, then self-publish.

I think most great works, like LotR, would be considered unpublishable by today's standards. Harry Potter *barely* got picked up. I read Wheel of Time ages ago, and still think it's a story worth reading. I'm not sure when I'll pick it up again, but I didn't regret the time commitment it took to read it when I did.

I am the kind of person that can commit to a BIG story, but it still has to be a *great* story. A lengthy epic has a higher standard to reach than most modern reads that are basically marketed for quick pops of entertainment for shorter attention spans.
A huge tome can be just as insufferable as anything sitting on the shelf published today, because a bad story is a bad story regardless of page or word count.

Azeroth I'm in the same boat as you... my 'outline' isn't even to the 2nd act, and is currently housed in two 3 ring binders... I'm writing it all as one work, would strongly prefer to publish as one BIG book, but prepared to release as multiple books.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
During my research across the internet, I came across on multiple occasions, that publishers are not interested in books that are long-winded. I.e, for any chance of a publisher to even look at your submission for more than two seconds, there has to be some action happening on the first page.

Yes, there has to be action happening. But not that kind of action. A wizard banging his staff on a Hobbit's door is action. It doesn't need to be a gunfight. You don't need, and probably shouldn't want, to open with a high-action explosion. Just focus on the event that you're opening with, and let the character and setting development flow naturally from the scene.


A lot of sites also advised that in this day and age (due to everything being so frantic and fast-paced, leaving people with little time for themselves) that nobody has time to read long novels any more. (I can attest to this. I'm approximately 670 pages through the Fires of Heaven, which is 960 pages long. It has taken me close to two weeks to get this far, due to work commitments and other life-stuff).

Which brings me to the conclusion that due to modern day trends, the chances of hitting the market with a magnum opus is quite slim. The fans want something simple to read and full of action.

I think some people may be guessing too much.

Publishers want shorter books for two important reasons. The first is that the size of a volume from an unknown author can scare readers off. Nine hundred pages is a lot to invest in someone you've never heard of. And the other, physical book stores only have so much shelf space, so the buying agent working for them is more likely to skip over longer books ("I can carry two books for $5 or one book for $7...").

But plenty of readers actually go for longer books all the time, and many even prefer it. If you can get a little bit of positive buzz going for your work, like maybe some good reviews on amazon, then readers will shuffle off their hesitance. And the more books are being sold by Amazon the less shelf space matters.

If a traditional publisher you'd like to work with recommends a word count, then shoot for it. But understand that they have considerations which aren't as simple as "Nobody will read this otherwise." And if you want to write a massive story there are still options for doing it.
 
My first French fantasy novel has 1,547 pages of prose, and the sequels are looking to be of equivalent length, currently considering self-publishing, but I'd prefer to have an editor peruse it and help touch it up.
My English books are nowhere near this length, and vary from 80 page anthologies to 600 page books.
 

A. E. Lowan

Forum Mom
Leadership
I think some people may be guessing too much.

Publishers want shorter books for two important reasons. The first is that the size of a volume from an unknown author can scare readers off. Nine hundred pages is a lot to invest in someone you've never heard of. And the other, physical book stores only have so much shelf space, so the buying agent working for them is more likely to skip over longer books ("I can carry two books for $5 or one book for $7...").

But plenty of readers actually go for longer books all the time, and many even prefer it. If you can get a little bit of positive buzz going for your work, like maybe some good reviews on amazon, then readers will shuffle off their hesitance. And the more books are being sold by Amazon the less shelf space matters.

If a traditional publisher you'd like to work with recommends a word count, then shoot for it. But understand that they have considerations which aren't as simple as "Nobody will read this otherwise." And if you want to write a massive story there are still options for doing it.
This. ^

There is also another reason why publishers often give a pass on super-long doorstops: paperback covers can only handle so much paper before their spines break and the book falls apart. 900 pages+ definitely fits into this category. Hardbacks can be sturdier, but not a whole lot of readers will pay hardback prices for a new author. (It should be noted that there's a hardback option in beta on Amazon's KDP.) The reason why some authors can get away with huge epics is because they're well-established and have fan bases that would buy the napkin they scribbled on at dinner. In other words, just about anything.

As someone who does write in the "James Patterson style," my team finds it has two advantages over meandering prose. One is that you can hook a reader into the next chapter, and the next, and the next until they're trying to finish the book the next morning in the parking lot before work. Second is that super-long paragraphs don't translate to e-book format well, and you end up with wall-of-text. That can really turn a lot of readers off.
 

Gwynndamere

Dreamer
I love to read long books, or especially a series that is at least a Trilogy! I am a fast reader, so I don't want the story to end too quickly - at least not the overall story. I write the same way. My first book was under 200 pages. Book 2 became close to 600, Books 3, 4 & 5 are around 4-500 each. Maybe 900 could be broken down into 2 books.
 
Of course, talking about pages is a bit vague at best, since it very much depends on font and trim size. You get a lot fewer pages if you go from 5X8, 12 pts font to 6X9 11pts. It's actually a pretty common self-publishing trick that if you want to increase your margins then you reduce your page count by going with a larger trim and smaller font. This decreases print costs, hence more profit. And of course, in ebooks, page count is completely irrelevant.

A tale needs to be as long as it needs to be, but no longer. Don't add filler just to create a longer book. Long does not equal immersive. But at the same time, you don't want to skim over important bits just to make the book shorter. This is probably tough to know for a beginning author, which is one of the reasons people are hesitant to go for 900 page debut novels.

Self-publishing is definitely a viable option. Readers care a lot less about page-length than publishers (and by extension Agents) do. Especially self-publishing, the majority of your sales will likely be ebook. And you can't tell length form the outside of the file. I doubt many readers will check page-count before purchasing. And costs are pretty much the same for a 100pg novel or a 1000pg novel (yes, there's a small delivery fee on amazon, but it's negligible unless you add a lot of graphics to your novel). You'll give readers a feeling of value for money if they can get a long novel for the same price as a short one, and even more so if you're in Kindle Unlimited.

In the end, readers want a good story, and there is plenty of room for long stories. If there wasn't then Brandon Sanderson wouldn't be hitting best seller lists left and right when he published books and Lord of the Rings wouldn't still be one of the best selling fantasy novels on Amazon. It's publishers who want shorter stories because they can sell more of them and they have a higher margin and lower cost. And it's authors who want them, because it's easier to release 10+ novels per year if you write 75k word stories as opposed to 200+k word stories.

As a side note, I love the hard-cover edition from the Amazon beta of my novel. I doubt anyone will buy it. But it feels great and looks wonderful.
 

A. E. Lowan

Forum Mom
Leadership
I think that the best advice I can probably offer is to not worry about page counts at this point. Write the book first and only then see what you're working with.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
One of the biggest reasons why 900+ for an unknown author will scare off an agent or pub is that they are predictive of a writer who hasn’t mastered their craft, and throw that on top of the risk to reward ratio for the print costs of a book so large, and… Yeah. 900 pages in print (depending on font, etc) is over 300k words, put that in a query and your sample pages better be Smokin’, and that’s for the ones who will bother to read those, LOL.

I’ve sold a surprising number of hardcovers, though not via any beta. And that’s without making it to personal signings, where I expected to sell hardcovers, because of Covid blowing things up. It’s the smallest revenue stream of the formats, but it still matters.
 
In my own subjective, probably erroneous opinion, I believe you have to look at the logistics of being a publisher, and also what writing means to you.

Companies want money. As Futhark pointed out, once Twilight became a hit, everyone and their uncle was writing/publishing vampire novels. Mainstream novels, in a sense, can become trendy factory line products, which is why publishers/bloggers/etc comprise lists of what your book should be like if you want it to be published/a hit.

In regards to that, you have to ask yourself what your story means to you. Are you willing to manufacture it in a marketable fashion, and if not, how much compromise will you allow? Standing your ground on your artistic integrity might cost you some deals and a lot of cash, but I'd suggest asking yourself why you write. If it's for the love of writing, you're probably happier writing the book how you see fit. If you want to make money, you might need to manufacture a marketable product that meets the current trends.
 
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