Traditional battle mages

[skip.knox]

Dumais Wells. Exactly! Goog summary too.

 

[Malik]

So, picture the most stereotyped kinds of battle magic. We're talking magic missiles and fireballs and that sort of thing. Has this ever been done well? In terms of sensible battlefield tactics (before firearms). I'd be interested to see references. I would exclude any super-soldier types of the sort Steve Erikson has. I'm talking regular infantry and cavalry with battle mages added.

Do such mages render regular army irrelevant? Relegated to guarding the camp or maybe serving as reserves? Or is there a place for genuine, mutually beneficial combat deployment? It struck me as I try to develop my own ideas about battlefield magic that I've read very few books that really use this. Even Tolkien barely has magic in his set pieces. There's the army of the dead and the Ringwraiths at Pelennor Fields, but not much else. Mostly just monsters. GRRM uses the magic fireworks at Kings Landing, but much of the rest is again regular folks fighting in regular ways. There's little evidence of actual military evolution taking account of magical power.

Looking forward to replies on this.

I made it a capital offense to directly cause harm with magic for exactly this reason. Battle magic is a can of worms, and it renders any other weapon obsolete.

The big thing hanging me up on my third book is that the Big Bad has a school teaching wizards to use their magic to inflict harm, literally creating battle mages. The climactic battlefield scene, with several combined armies against a company-sized element of battle mages, is proving extremely difficult to write, much less write well. I may have written myself into a corner.

When I get it figured out, I'll let you know.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

So, picture the most stereotyped kinds of battle magic. We're talking magic missiles and fireballs and that sort of thing. Has this ever been done well? In terms of sensible battlefield tactics (before firearms). I'd be interested to see references. I would exclude any super-soldier types of the sort Steve Erikson has. I'm talking regular infantry and cavalry with battle mages added.

Do such mages render regular army irrelevant? Relegated to guarding the camp or maybe serving as reserves? Or is there a place for genuine, mutually beneficial combat deployment? It struck me as I try to develop my own ideas about battlefield magic that I've read very few books that really use this. Even Tolkien barely has magic in his set pieces. There's the army of the dead and the Ringwraiths at Pelennor Fields, but not much else. Mostly just monsters. GRRM uses the magic fireworks at Kings Landing, but much of the rest is again regular folks fighting in regular ways. There's little evidence of actual military evolution taking account of magical power.

Looking forward to replies on this.

Done well, it wouldn’t make the army irrelevant. I tend to avoid classic battlemage books.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I made it a capital offense to directly cause harm with magic for exactly this reason. Battle magic is a can of worms, and it renders any other weapon obsolete.

The big thing hanging me up on my third book is that the Big Bad has a school teaching wizards to use their magic to inflict harm, literally creating battle mages. The climactic battlefield scene, with several combined armies against a company-sized element of battle mages, is proving extremely difficult to write, much less write well. I may have written myself into a corner.

When I get it figured out, I'll let you know.

I’ve worked in so many limitations to magic that while a variety of magic is effective on the battlefield, you want to hit and run, or use it in desperation rather than a standard tactic. And magic isn’t common, in particular deadly battlefield stuff, so it’s kind of like risking your queen on the chessboard to utilize them.

 

[Yora]

I heard it described somewhere that the role of artillery is to take a position, but it takes infantry to actually hold it. It seems to me like it'd be pretty easy to slot battle mages in as effectively artillery units.

Artillery, and now air strikes, are the main weapons that kill soldiers in modern wars. But killing soldiers is never the true goal. You can destroy bases and strongholds and severely reduce the number of soldiers manning them, but then what? If you want to make use of a position or make sure the enemy is not using it, you always have to have soldiers go there and actually take the place.
This is why the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq seemed to go so very well in the first weeks. The invaders were really effective at blowing up planes, tanks, and buildings, but they didn't really have a plan what to do about the soldiers who were still in the ruins.

The thing with medieval battles is that many of them were open field battles, were both sides were all lined up in the open and pushing against each other until one side collapsed and could quickly be slaughtered. In such conditions bombardment would be absolutely devastating and could wipe out an army almost completely.
I guess the appearance of better artillery was a major factor in abandoning tightly packed formations of great numbers of soldiers, and instead have them spread out and take cover. I think this really started to develop in the American Civl War. They also still used large formations marching in the open, which probably was a big factor in the staggering numbers of death during that war.

If you have mages throwing huge fireballs, I think large field battles would disappear quite quickly.

 

[Prince of Spires]

One story with battle mages in it is definitely Star Wars. They're not so much the fireball throwing kind, but more some kind of super soldiers. They're mainly movies of course, but there's a few comic books and perhaps also a few books I think. Not sure about their quality.

Wheel of time is a good example as well. That also emphasizes the importance of having limits to what you can achieve with magic to prevent any battle simply being mages hurling fireballs at each other.

Brandon Sanderson has books with mages fighting in there as well. The stormlight archives series is similar to star wards in that the battle mages are more super soldiers then the hurling fireballs around kind of battle mage. The easy thing about them I think is that they're easier to balance. A super soldier only affects a limited area of the battle field and can be defeated. It becomes different with nuclear weapon levels of power battle mages.

Another thought I had is that you should answer the question why the mages aren't the ones in charge (in case they aren't). In a society where might makes right and the strongest ones often end up being in charge you would expect someone who could obliterate a castle with a wave of his hands to be the one calling the shots. In a feudal society a very powerful mage would quickly rise to the top ranks. Perhaps a king could get away with not knowing any magic. But for a baron I would definitely expect them to know magic if it is both reasonably common and powerful, unless there is a very good reason for this to not be the case.

 

[Yora]

My favorite use of mages in battle is to have them behind the lines casting opposing morale affecting rituals over the soldiers and countering the other sides divinations. They might not even be visible during a battle but be the deciding factor that determines the outcome.

 

[skip.knox]

I appreciate all the comments. I'm still struck by how few examples of set-piece battle magic there are. One that might exist could be R.A. Salvatore's work. I read one or two and didn't like them at all, but with so many volumes out there, he may well have had a few big battles.

I said I would talk about my own approach. I do have some set-pieces in Goblins at the Gates, one open-field battle and one siege. I put a fair amount of thought into both, but that story takes place right at the beginning of the arrival of magic in Altearth, in what I'm calling the Heroic Age of magic. That means magic was wielded by individuals who were entirely natural, untrained. The magic was highly unreliable and unpredictable, and quite without precedent for the Roman military commanders. On the goblin side, it was in the hands of a few shamanistic types we see only at a distance. IOW, I had a pretty free hand in saying what happened in the field, and was able to craft a number of one-offs without fussing much about consequences. Even then, I had to consider how to have magicians pull off large-scale magic effects without killing as many allies as enemies. This was even harder when the magicians were "barbarians" (Dacians) working as auxiliaries to regular Roman troops. Fireballs and earthquakes don't integrate well with Roman military formations. <g>

Subsequent books had magic in a non-military setting, but The Falconer will have set pieces. It's nearly a thousand years after Goblins and the use of magic has evolved. As others have observed, the bigger the magic, the more disruptive it is, for allies as well as enemies. One solution is to put magicians to the rear, as human artillery. That would create a magic phase, then an non-magic phase to a battle (lots of exceptions here). One could also put magicians on the flanks--I have a vague notion about magic cavalry just because it sounds fun. Still another possibility is skirmishers.

But there are other possibilities. It strikes me that a certain type of magician would make a good sentry or a good scout. A mage armorer would be valuable, casting protective spells or even working magic right into the metal. I picture still another type of magician enchanting rocks. You heard me. For the slingers. Or a mage fletcher, for the arrows. There really ought to be a name for the guy who makes spears and javelins. Anyway.

The point of this somewhat random ramble is that it feels like there are many possibilities for using mages on the battlefield (medic!), but I sure can't come up with many examples from published works. Figuring out the roles is only one part of it, too. How did the mage get there? Who hires him? What does he do when peace breaks out? When he retires? How does he gain the skills in the first place? Who teaches him and who pays the teacher and decides what gets taught? Or is it all just random, natural skill? How many mages can a baron afford? A duke or count? A king? In Altearth, anyway, they aren't going to get paid. They're going to get land and income. Kings were never as rich as most people think they were. What happens if mages start thinking they're the ones who ought to command an army? What if it's the king himself who's a mage? How does society deal with a mage (or mages) who do in fact have nuclear-level powers?

And so on. At this point, the possibilities feel exciting to me. Being an academic, my first instinct is to research, which is why I keep asking for references. I do appreciate the suggestions made so far.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

In Trail of Pyres, High Priestess Sedut can surround herself with a globe of energy which is effectively a thousand whirling blades. She is used in a sneak attack behind the enemy’s line to devastating effect, because arrows have a near zero chance to get through the blur. However, once the enemy has seen her in action, they counter with a booby trap, essentially something like a guy wearing a keg of nitroglycerine, and she damned near meets her Waterloo. Puts her out of the fight anyhow, and a route ensues.

 

[ChasingSuns]

Personally I've been working on a story where most large armies have mage units. They're smaller in scale compared to other forms of units, but can be very effective. The range of magic one can learn is quite wide in this world, but considering that mages only have enough time to really master specific aspects of magic in one lifetime, these units tend to be specialized for a certain purpose. Sure, you could have a unit of mages who specifically throw fireballs at the enemy, but that might not be the best course of action in a moment. Perhaps the enemy has a mage unit that specializes in protective barriers, which would basically render your fire mages useless. So it all just kinda becomes part of the tactical chess game.

And then there's one kingdom that has no mages. Instead, they utilize gunpowder and magic-dampening crystals. Neither of these are utilized by the other nations because 1) the crystals would hinder their own mages, and 2) almost every other kingdom has a strict firearm ban due to them being "uncivilized and dishonorable" (although this perception will eventually change with later stories).

 

[Devor]

If you have mages throwing huge fireballs, I think large field battles would disappear quite quickly.

That is one possible countermeasure, if you can't find a way to handle the mages in battle. But what do you replace it with? If you're on the mage's side, an army is the best way of offering protection. And if you're against the mage, how do you get past those defenses? Eventually the mage, and all the forces supporting that mage, get to the city, and the best way to avoid casualties and destruction would be to fight the mage before they get there (if you can).

 

[Yora]

Once you have mages who can rain down death and destruction on their enemies, I think warfare quickly changes to resemble 19th century battles.
If you don't have any battle mages to counter their battle mages, you're really screwed.

 

[Insolent Lad]

The main role of magic in battle in my stuff has been communication. In that wizards can 'speak from afar' with one another, they pretty much serve in the role of two-way radios. That tends to be the fate of the less-gifted. The whole throwing fire etc etc bit doesn't work so well with my system; it can work and sometimes is used but is based on the ability to pull stuff from other worlds. This doesn't really lend it to most situations in any practical manner, although pulling in smoke or 'shadow' for concealment/camouflage is not too uncommon. Of course, if there is some mage on the other side he or she can pull in a wind and disperse it.

 

[SergeiMeranov]

My immediate reaction was the Powder Mage trilogy did this, but upon reflection they tended to use magic as more of a "buff" than outright spell casting. At least that's my memory of the series. I do know that they heavily incorporated magic use into the regular military though. It might be a decent place to start?

 

[skip.knox]

Since my stories are mostly medieval, there's no "regular military" around, but I have given serious thought to whether mages might not be part of the aristocracy in some way. In the end I rejected it. Instead, I've chosen to let organized wizards be a kind of rival power structure to the secular lords. They work in cooperation when it suits both sides, and undermine each other when opportunity offers.

The corollary of that is, a handful of battle mages, mainly for defense of strategic positions (royal castles, e.g.), who are directly dependent upon a court. But no actual corps of wizards complete with tactics and maneuvers. There are reasons for this, but TL;DT (too long; didn't type).

 

[Alex Reiden]

Do such mages render regular army irrelevant?

All the abilities you mentioned were destructive. A single bullet. arrow, or knife blade ends this overblown threat.

 

[skip.knox]

Alex Reiden, I have to disagree with this. All I need do is posit the magical ability to dodge or even to turn back such weapons on their bearers.

Magic always wins if unrestrained because known weapons (guns, bows, blades) are constrained by physics. Magic isn't. That's why the common advice is always to limit the magic in a story in some way.

There's a point to be made sideways here, though. However one choose to limit magic in a world, the non-magic users of that world would soon be hard at work finding non-magical ways to get at those mages. To use Alex's example, maybe magicians could put up a force field that stops arrows. Then gunpowder comes along and those same fields get penetrated by bullets. Lots of room for a good story there.

 

[Alex Reiden]

Physics is quite literally how a universe works by definition, and it controls anything and everything in it. Any science or magic you introduce to it only exists there, and behaves the way it does, because the physics for that universe allow it.

And as the author, you are God of this universe and can create the physics however you wish. You are no more constrained in creating a gun that can blow up a continent as you are creating a spell that does the same, or a metal so toxic or irradiated it kills anything it touches (perhaps the radiation -- a scientific property -- makes it ignore magical defenses), or a creature with blood so specifically corrosive it eats through all substances you specify but nothing else. The Utlimate Nullifier is engineered to unmake the entire cosmos. You can concoct any applied phlebotinum you like, and you can explain it scientifically or magically.

The OP never mentioned force fields, only magic missiles and fireballs, neither of which are the variety of magic capable of stopping a well-placed sharpshooter. Many wizards in fantasy fiction are gunships; powerfully explosive, but vulnerable. Many weapons are the same.

My point is, don't limit your creativity to something you call magic when the entire physics of the universe is at your command.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

> What is a traditional mage battle?
Do you know of any in published works? I don't have any problem thinking up possibilities and scenarios. I'm interested in how those scenarios actually get written. As I said above, I've mostly come up empty.

I promise I'll put forward my own thoughts, but I wanted to hear from others first.

Powder mage books. They have some powerful dudes. But when they get shot from a mile and half off, fat lot of good their magic does them.

 

[Aldarion]

>I tend to not read books with battle mages, or I've just avoided them accidentally. I don't think its' been a conscious choice.
That's part of what got me thinking about this. In discussions, one can find an unending stream of people sort of dismissing battle mages (I use the term in a generic way to cover all uses of magic on a field of battle) out of hand. Fireballs, and all that. Yet, when I look at what I have read, I can recall very few examples. And that made me wonder, is this an area that could be explored?

Well of course it can. In that spirit, I appreciate the reference to Eddings. Belgariad is somewhere in my distant past; I might have to take another look there.

Codex Alera. I haven't read it, but it has legions as well as large-scale battle magic. As in, powerful mages - such as the Princeps - can wipe out cities. But usually, magic there seems to be used on tactical, spec-ops level: surgical strikes against enemy leadership and such. I might be wrong, as I said, I have not read it (yet!).

In my world there are no battle mages, because defensive/protection magic is so much more powerful that it has invalidated not just offensive magic but also firearms as well. But I do have in mind event that will change that... though that may change as I develop the world.