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Tasteful Info Dump

We all hate it right? But sometimes there's no way around it...

I was going over final proofs for my next book the other day and there is one section that still mildly irritates me. It is a complex dystopia and, for the most part, I convey its features and rules within the beats of the story, but there is one long dense para in which the MC is thinking about a scary new religion.

For all I know, readers won't even notice, and certainly the editor hasn't identified it as a problem. But it still irks me.

Thing is, the richness of the info conveyed in that one para - which comes about 25pp in - is just about worth it in a world building sense.

One of my favourite books is 1984 but it has pages and pages of info dump when (for example) Winston is reading Goldstein's book. So even the masters do it.

Thoughts?
 

Futhark

Inkling
I've never been bothered by the odd info dump, especially when it fits into the narrative of the story. In fact, there are times when I wished the author had provided more info up front so I knew what was going on, instead of trying too hard to pepper it throughout the story. Sometimes an info dump is just the best way to go.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
Why does it irk you? Other passages don't. Can you identify what it is about this particular passage that bothers you?
 
Don't you allow your characters introspection? Freedom to think and explore deep thoughts? Perhaps it is the context that feels so objectionable to you, because clearly it is not the content.

Or, let's set up the hypothetical: if your character had a little too much to drink, and started drifting to philosophical (or in your case, religious) conversation or insight, and surrounding friends kind of went quiet for a moment after the MC gets these thoughts of his chest, and the mood in the room went from jovial to awkward ... would that perhaps have a better "context?" Or, how about this character discussing this "new religion", but it is actually coming from a place within where he realizes he is losing (or lost) his own faith, or is finally admitting to himself that he is struggling to keep it? Or, je could just reflecting on how shockingly appalled he is by this new religion when contrasted against his own moral compass?

Guess what? People do have moments like this in real life... it just doesn't feel like info-dumping IRL because (for argument's sake) we all share the common context, a shared history, a somewhat relateable human experience to one another.

I am not claiming to be the master of the clandestine, near subliminal info-dump, but I also do not outright object to it because I'd like to experience more of the context and content. That's why I am reading in the first place! Every word, every image, every evocation that is executed well only helps to immerse my imagination; to invoke my introspection. It's part of the intimacy and strength of the novel medium. The masters do it, so don't hold yourself to such unreasonable standards.
 
Thanks guys.

It's really hard to identify what's wrong - I guess it feels tonally different to the rest of the (quite long) novel. As NG suggested I have tried to put it in acceptable context - the thoughts of the MC as he walks through a strange city. A lot of information is conveyed in one long para so it is at least efficient, but every time I read it (and I must have read it 500 times) I feel my teeth gritting.

This wasn't supposed to be about my work - more a general discussion about when (if) info dump can work. But since you asked I'll paste the offending passage below. The MC (Conan) is an investigating agent of the AFP (our version of your FBI) who has been sent to Ord City to investigate a murder. Ord City is a massive new city in the far north were refugees had been invited to assemble since 2023. It is now 2030 and some of the refugees are about to become full citizens.

* * *
Conan had always taken an interest in graffiti. From his earliest days as a police detective (before transferring to the feds) he had picked up on gang information which the members had happily advertised on walls, assuming no-one in authority would understand. Conan understood, which had led to a number of successful arrests and a fast-tracked career.

For a while.

But he was still naturally interested in how the people of the streets communicated and took his time getting to the back-lane address which had been scribbled on Michael Wing Ho’s card.

AINANIA he saw again and again, and suddenly twigged its meaning – “all is nothing and nothing is all” – the most fundamental principle of Habal Tong.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about Ord City was the way so many different races and cultures had blended in such a short time, despite so many ancient conflicts. The reason for the new harmony was mostly attributed to Habal Tong, according to numerous documentaries on religious integration and tolerance, but there was a darker side. Having combined all the best features of its component faiths, HT devotees were confident that they had synthesised the perfect philosophy – free from the trademark doubt that fluttered in the hearts of other believers. This confidence sometimes bred an unpleasantly arrogant fanaticism which was unsettling for the mainstream Australian population, already getting nervous about the imminent First Wave being released into wider society. There were mutterings about embracing Australian values before being let loose and any number of powerful voices were raised in protest. Not least the far right radical group – Dedd Reffo – who were dedicated to keeping refugees out of Australia. They had purchased a submarine from Somalian pirates (renamed the HMAS Eureka) and since 2024 had been sinking refugee boats in international waters, polarising the mainstream community. Most condemned them for cold-blooded mass murder, but others encouraged them and dinner party conversations in Sydney and Melbourne were getting increasingly heated.

The other polarising issue was the number of disaffected Australian youth who were converting to Habal Tong, spouting its tenets like counter-cultural axioms to rock the establishment. The biggest surprise of the 2025 census was the decline in those who regarded themselves as atheist or agnostic.

And clearly, all of those same battles were playing out in graffiti daubed on the walls of Ord City.

And the murder statistics,’ thought Conan as he arrived at the house in Ruddock Lane where the two men had been found, bearing the marks of two violently opposed groups.
 
Thanks guys.

It's really hard to identify what's wrong - I guess it feels tonally different to the rest of the (quite long) novel. As NG suggested I have tried to put it in acceptable context - the thoughts of the MC as he walks through a strange city. A lot of information is conveyed in one long para so it is at least efficient, but every time I read it (and I must have read it 500 times) I feel my teeth gritting.

This wasn't supposed to be about my work - more a general discussion about when (if) info dump can work. But since you asked I'll paste the offending passage below. The MC (Conan) is an investigating agent of the AFP (our version of your FBI) who has been sent to Ord City to investigate a murder. Ord City is a massive new city in the far north were refugees had been invited to assemble since 2023. It is now 2030 and some of the refugees are about to become full citizens.

* * *
Conan had always taken an interest in graffiti. From his earliest days as a police detective (before transferring to the feds) he had picked up on gang information which the members had happily advertised on walls, assuming no-one in authority would understand. Conan understood, which had led to a number of successful arrests and a fast-tracked career.

For a while.

But he was still naturally interested in how the people of the streets communicated and took his time getting to the back-lane address which had been scribbled on Michael Wing Ho’s card.

AINANIA he saw again and again, and suddenly twigged its meaning – “all is nothing and nothing is all” – the most fundamental principle of Habal Tong.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about Ord City was the way so many different races and cultures had blended in such a short time, despite so many ancient conflicts. The reason for the new harmony was mostly attributed to Habal Tong, according to numerous documentaries on religious integration and tolerance, but there was a darker side. Having combined all the best features of its component faiths, HT devotees were confident that they had synthesised the perfect philosophy – free from the trademark doubt that fluttered in the hearts of other believers. This confidence sometimes bred an unpleasantly arrogant fanaticism which was unsettling for the mainstream Australian population, already getting nervous about the imminent First Wave being released into wider society. There were mutterings about embracing Australian values before being let loose and any number of powerful voices were raised in protest. Not least the far right radical group – Dedd Reffo – who were dedicated to keeping refugees out of Australia. They had purchased a submarine from Somalian pirates (renamed the HMAS Eureka) and since 2024 had been sinking refugee boats in international waters, polarising the mainstream community. Most condemned them for cold-blooded mass murder, but others encouraged them and dinner party conversations in Sydney and Melbourne were getting increasingly heated.

The other polarising issue was the number of disaffected Australian youth who were converting to Habal Tong, spouting its tenets like counter-cultural axioms to rock the establishment. The biggest surprise of the 2025 census was the decline in those who regarded themselves as atheist or agnostic.

And clearly, all of those same battles were playing out in graffiti daubed on the walls of Ord City.

And the murder statistics,’ thought Conan as he arrived at the house in Ruddock Lane where the two men had been found, bearing the marks of two violently opposed groups.

Without reading the entire manuscript this might seem little more than a thought in the dark, but... I do see something that might help with the 'tonal shift'.

Conan, an investigator, is walking the back alley way to an address (of a crime scene). This shows a masterful working knowledge of the city. Especially of a new city constructed solely for the defferment of vast swaths of different peoples.

It is suggested that Ord City is new, and he is essentially watching the symbolism and "future artifacts" of a culture develop in realtime. I think something that could be incorporated is what the character is seeing, walking past, observing, taking note of, as he is tracking his way to the address in question. He sees the graffiti, on what exactly? Is it drawn over garrish advertisements? Tagged in doorways and cars? Or, defacing symbols of other faiths? Do the Habal Tong build temples, or 'preach in the streets'? Are places of faith being actively converted from one older religion or denomination to haunts for the Habal Tong converted/ faithful?

And, it is also suggested that so many people with ancient conflicts are suddenly cloistered together... getting along for the most part... what would that look/feel/sound like to a naturally observant character who savvy to street / counter- culture? Are there strange combinations of food being sold by street vendors, that traditions would normally forbid being consummed? Strange street fashion, mixing cultural clothing together? What interesting laundered garments are hanging out to dry on the line?

If your character is just the cerebral type, the incomming sensory information may not be necessary to 'prompt' his thinking... but it might make the context (for the reader) for his unreeling line of thought to seem to flow from information the character is experiencing (as he is already in an introspective mood), and that this internationalizing ties back to the larger narrative context.

Also, did he previously get the "graffiti street messaging" wrong in his (early fast tracking) career? To what consequence?

Otherwise, I find the information intriguing, and not particularly jarring at all.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
Yeah, it kind of goes narrator tone instead of feeling like introspection. So it kind of depends on what the rest of the book is like in POV flavor.
 
Thanks NG for so much thought and effort. We are at final proofs stage so I'd suspect we won't be making any further changes. I just posted that as an example of what I was talking about. I feel rather odd about it actually - I do feel like I'm totally on top of my game now, and yet I just can't fix that one para.

Well spotted DDN - that's pretty much bang on. I suspect this is a surviving note from my world building phase that I just haven't been able to articulate through the characters. It does the job and it isn't that long - but for me as a reader it does jolt me out of the flow a little and I strive so hard for that not to happen.

Anyway, this thread wasn't supposed to be about my work. It's for other's input into the idea of acceptable info dump - and when it's acceptable.

When and how does it work?
 
When and how does it work?

Info dumping is an acquired, skilled balancing act... I don't want to be left (too far) in the dark as a reader, when some well executed sentences from the author could be so very enriching (and often contextually necessary). But I also want some room to use my own imagination. And, I resent a hand-held guided point by point curated tour of "what feels like the should-be-obvious to convey by other creative means" is instead exposited by clumsy or awkward (even lazy) info-dumping.

Like anything, it needs to be done well to be well appreciated. And, frankly, some stories need info-dumping more than others. If I cannot understand wtf is going on, I'm probably going to 1. second guess myself and even assume I picked a book out of the middle of a series, and maybe that's why the author assumes I can infer more information than I reasonably can, and. 2. Upon realizing it is not a mistake on my part and this is just how the book is written, probably not enjoy the book as much as the author hoped I would. 3. Worse case scenario, put the book down.
 
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