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How to interpret and discuss symbols

I love symbolism but I find they can be a mind field. There is so much deeper meaning attached to even every day objects/food/things, the bed, the apple tree, honey even a basil leaf can be seen as protection against evil

Do readers expect a certain level of awareness around symbols that resonate with how they are generally perceived ? - if my character wears amber do I have to be aware the reasons for this and not just use it off the cuff.

How deep does this need to go?

My approach now is to focus on some of my favourites and build more narrative around those having symbolic meaning instead of unpicking every single item used.

I worry if that if I mention the character admiring an oak tree then I should be aware of the symbolic nature of the oak tree.

I am also having some trouble with the variety of meanings that can be attached to one thing object. - it is perceived differently by different cultures-
 
I worry if that if I mention the character admiring an oak tree then I should be aware of the symbolic nature of the oak tree.
It's not how aware you need to be, it's how aware you want to portray the character to be. How aware/oblivious a character is to the symbolism of the oak tree (or anything else) shows an aspect of the character. Symbolism is a tool. Use it accordingly.
 

Insolent Lad

Maester
It is rare that I would consciously create and insert a symbol in a story. My subconscious does that nicely enough—and I can pick out at least some of those afterwards and recognize their significance. The reader, of course, is liable to find all sorts of symbolism we never intended.
 
The great thing I find about symbolism is that their are SO many options from our world to choose from. I don't often use symbolism directly borrowed from our world but, when I do, I tend to look deep into the object's history and try to find something new. I also find that, when I am looking to incorporate something as a symbol throughout a story, if I just give it enough time, something suggests itself to me. Often that s not something pre existing but something new that fits my created world even better.

My favorite example was a story I wrote where I wanted the number seven to have a deep rooted role, I worked in some obvious little details but I chose all seven of the supporting characters who the MC encounters and based them off the Seven Gods of Fortune in Japanese mythology. There is nothing overt about them in the story, they're not magical, just regular people, but each interaction personifies one of the seven and the main characters fortunes, can't change until she meets all seven. I had only one reader pick up on that usage though several noted the seven encounters with the MC. So no, I don't think you need to stay true to real world assignments of meaning and symbolism, though it can be easier to do so and readers may come along more readily if you do. :)
 

Mad Swede

Auror
I love symbolism but I find they can be a mind field. There is so much deeper meaning attached to even every day objects/food/things, the bed, the apple tree, honey even a basil leaf can be seen as protection against evil

Do readers expect a certain level of awareness around symbols that resonate with how they are generally perceived ? - if my character wears amber do I have to be aware the reasons for this and not just use it off the cuff.

How deep does this need to go?

My approach now is to focus on some of my favourites and build more narrative around those having symbolic meaning instead of unpicking every single item used.

I worry if that if I mention the character admiring an oak tree then I should be aware of the symbolic nature of the oak tree.

I am also having some trouble with the variety of meanings that can be attached to one thing object. - it is perceived differently by different cultures-
I wouldn't worry about how aware your readers are. You're writing fantasy, so the only thing your symbolism has to be is internally consistent with other parts of your fantasy world. I wouldn't assume any knowledge on the part of your readers, in fact I think that some of the pleasure in reading good fantasy is in that sense of discovery (and, sometimes, wonder) that you get as you immerse yourself in the story and the world it is set in. I think you'll need to explain why certain things are symbolic in the course of your story, but that is perhaps something that the characters can reflect on or discuss as the story develops.
 

A. E. Lowan

Forum Mom
Leadership
Symbols are basically just shorthand for more complicated concepts, scaling from complex religious symbolism to alphabet letters, which are symbols for the sounds we make in a written language. We are drenched in symbolism and your fantasy culture will be no exception. If I was writing about a constructed culture's symbolism I would find a character who's an outsider, called an "exposition character," who needs things explained to them and who is curious about how things work. That way you can avoid the notorious "As you know, Bob..." exposition conversations that can bore a reader to tears.
 

Lynea

Sage
Is it good to use symbolism? Yes. I think you are over-complicating an aspect of writing that's mostly artistic and instinctual. You don't have to plan all your symbols to the nines. Sure, a well-placed symbol can enrich the character or the story but you don't want to throw them around like candies.

Though, I do understand it can be difficult to design the 'right' symbol. For instance, colors can be a big hint to the reader. They see something gray and understand the mixed duality of it, or they see something red and understand the passion of it. Trees can serve as a symbol of life and foundational sturdiness, perhaps even emotional authority if you want to go that deep.

Overall, I would say try not to use symbols just because you like them. Try to use symbols that match the setting and the characters well. What is your setting full of that can be drawn on? What is the climate like? What sorts of landmarks are there?
 

Chasejxyz

Inkling
There's the beating you over the head symbolism (HES STANDING IN THE SHADOWS THAT MEANS HES A BAD GUY) and there's subtle symbolism (she looked over the spread at the continententl breakfast. The camera lingered for 0.005 milliseconds over the donut but she ultimately chose the croissant. That means that she has deep-seated issues regarding her father, an American soldier). Which one was put in there intentionally? Which one was put in subconsciously? Which one is just someone reading waaaaaaaaaay too into this?

Farenheit 451 is not about censorship, so sayeth the author. But how many people read it without knowing that? Why is it then that so many people glean from it that it's about censorship? Which reading is the correct one? The answer is....there is no correct answer! Death of the author and all that. There's also the whole "Lord of the Rings is about World War 1" thing. Even if JRRT didn't INTENTIONALLY make it about WW1, his experiences have shaped his view of the world and he could be unintentionally making those allegories. Sometimes these unintentional uses are....pretty bad. Look at all the stories of "savage" races such as orcs that share a lot of things with groups such as Muslims or Mongolians; it's usually more than just coincidence. Even if the writer isn't trying to be racist, racist tropes and symbols can be used without knowing their full connotations and create racist works.

You also need to realize that what you write is not what people are going to read. The reader does not have every bit of info in your head, and they do not have the same biases and information you do. An orange is a symbol of good luck in China, as a symbol of fertility in other parts of the world, or even a symbol of Florida. What comes to mind first is going to be different for every reader, especially if they're from a different background than you. If your character/setting is Chinese, then someone in the know will assume you mean the Chinese meaning, but not everyone will know the Chinese meaning.

If you have to google what the symbolic nature of an oak tree is...then it's not common knowledge, or at least not common knowledge in your culture. So the average reader probably isn't going to be getting it, either. Unless you're writing literary fiction, the reader probably isn't going into it intentionally looking for symbols, but repeating themes might look like symbols. This is why beta readers are so good, they're going to read (and, more importantly, misread) your work. If they come up with meanings you don't want there to be, then you can fix that. But if it's possible for you to be misread, someone is going to misread it. You'll have to accept that.
 

Mad Swede

Auror
Farenheit 451 is not about censorship, so sayeth the author. But how many people read it without knowing that? Why is it then that so many people glean from it that it's about censorship? Which reading is the correct one? The answer is....there is no correct answer! Death of the author and all that. Tt.
Hmm. I think that perhaps you misunderstand what Roland Barthes meant when he wrote his essay "La mort de l'auteur" (The Death of the Author). Although Barthes was challenging the idea that authors had clear intentions about the meanings in all parts of their works and that they intended that these meanings be interpreted in a certain way, he did not write that authors had no intentions at all. in my view, too many critics take Barthes' essay to mean that their opinion on the meanings in a work are as valid or even more valid than that of the author, even when the author themselves may have stated that there is no meaning or that the meaning is in fact something else. And yes, I'm aware that in writing this I am, to a degree, agreeing with Sean Burke's view that authorial intent can be used to constrain interpretation of a work. Whilst I think that Barthes and others are largely correct in their view that you cannot reconstruct an authors's thoughts, opinions and and beliefs from a given work I don't think you can take that as the basis for saying that the authors own stated intent or meaning can be ignored.

But now we've landed a long way from the original discussion on interpretation of symbols. ;)
 
My most successful book has a cicada on the cover.

The cicada is a powerful symbol within the MC's personal myth system. It is a system with depth and texture and was great fun to write.
 
There's two sides to this.

The first is that you can't rely on real-world symbols and people knowing about them. Symbols are very culture-dependent and meaning will vary even within a country. If you want real world symbols to mean something you have to explain them to the reader just as you would with your own made up symbols. I think Dan Brown manages this in the Davinci Code.

The other side is that if you are writing an imaginary world that symbols (as long as you don't overdo it) can add a lot of flavour to your world. Often, if you do little details really well then people will accept big ideas more easily. So you have a consistent and solid set of symbols your character follows then your world will feel more real. But, again, you would have to be explicit about those symbols, because your reader will not know what they are. And some readers will not pick up on them, even if you are explicit.
 
Thank you everyone, what a wonderful array of knowledge!

Prince of Spires and Don Coyote - I was moulding my characters around what they deem symbolic, attaching specifics and levels of heaviness a to their acknowledgement/superstitions/beliefs around it, so happy this has been affirmed is a good way to go about it.

I bought the dictionary of symbols as I have always loved to understand the origins or just the cross-cultural interpretation of objects, things places and I confess it was quite overwhelming when I suddenly thought about in the context of writing.

As you say it’s fantasy, so the freedom here to create something new/otherworldly is exciting. I have done that with my interpretation of black magic - the way I approach it is different to the way we often think of malign magic in contemporary society.

7-11 are numbers I always look out for !

And A.E. Lowan - I’m just thinking how I can tweak one character to fold into the idea of an exposition character -thank you for providing that.

Perhaps for my own enjoyment I will plant a few here and there that are not spelled out- and a reader who picks up on it will, in that moment, enjoy the same fun I had adding it in.
 

Britical Hit

Acolyte
There's two sides to this.

The first is that you can't rely on real-world symbols and people knowing about them. Symbols are very culture-dependent and meaning will vary even within a country. If you want real world symbols to mean something you have to explain them to the reader just as you would with your own made up symbols. I think Dan Brown manages this in the Davinci Code.

The other side is that if you are writing an imaginary world that symbols (as long as you don't overdo it) can add a lot of flavour to your world. Often, if you do little details really well then people will accept big ideas more easily. So you have a consistent and solid set of symbols your character follows then your world will feel more real. But, again, you would have to be explicit about those symbols, because your reader will not know what they are. And some readers will not pick up on them, even if you are explicit.
This is something I'd give my least favourite arm to get to the bottom of. I'm too lazy when it comes to reading to go through the entire back-catalogue of Jung... (as I type, I realise that I can probably compromise, settle down with a cup of something hot and commit to reading the collective unconscious Wikipedia page :coffee:... a job for later!). But that's what fascinates me: the extent to which symbols are 'baked' into our brains. How much is hard-wired from birth and how much is acquired from parents and culture, at its various levels of scale?
 
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