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Un-Naming

So, I've been kicking an idea around for a while in the latest rendition/rewrite of my current novel about what I call "The Un-naming."

To un-name someone (in my world) is to erase their existence and destroy their soul. The past, present, and future are gone but the Nameless one doesn't die - they just have no purpose. They are basically ghosts as their actions have no effect on anyone or anything as their "fate" has been erased and they will never be reborn.

I'm wondering if this is even a good idea or even plausible because it raises so many questions - like if their past is erased and they are the direct reason why such and such event occured will you create a paradox and so on and so forth. Or would it be that the events occured, but no one could remember how they got to the state they're in because the memory of the Nameless one is no more and they will have no further role to play in the future?

Is this a good idea? In need of a more fleshed-out approached? Or is it a thought that can be added but in the "great debate" of this fantasical world where people threaten to have someone un-named, yet no one knows how to go about doing it or if it has ever been done (for who could remember?)?

Thoughts? Comments? Questions? Concerns?

I'm hungry.:smoke:
 
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JCFarnham

Auror
No idea is a bad idea, because in writing all ideas have the potential to be good ideas.

The fact that is raises many questions should be a wonderful thing to discover. After all, the crux of worldbuilding is the question, the what if, the why, how, where and what. Work through those questions the unnaming calls to light and try and find a way of resolving them into one internal consistant "thing". This is fiction, it shouldn't matter whether it could happen in the real world just as long as it makes sense in the narrative. A paradox is a great thing (and widely written about you'll find). All kinds of interesting avenues are open to you!

I'm not trying to stop you from working on this. Just because people have worked with lots of different paradox before doesn't mean you shouldn't.

The main questions I'd want to answer are; How, if Unnamed individuals "don't exist", aren't remembered and never will be remembered, do you plan to involve this pecularity in the story? Does your protagonist have some kind of rare sight? Or do they become Unnamed themselves and the story follows them? If the Unnamed have no purpose then can there be any inherent conflict?

I imagine there are many stories that could be told in this setting! :)
 

myrddin173

Maester
I love this idea because the ramifications of such a thing are interesting to figure out. One example that is similar to this is in the Eragon books. In them the dragons did some mojo and "cursed" the dragons of the 13 Forsworn thereby removing their true names. As a result they went mad because they couldn't even say "I..." Of course I think whatever you will write will be far superior to his work.

Another thing that I thought of when you were talking about the effect on the past is Balefire from the Wheel of Time series. It is a very dangerous thing, something even the worst of the bad guys sort of feel. So the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of an Age from the threads of people's lives. Now what Balefire does is burn a person's thread going back in time, having the cease to exist before they were destroyed. Whatever they did during that time (varies according to how powerful the person doing the balefiring is, most can only do a few seconds others hours, days...) never happened, however people still remember/think that it did.

Of course none of this could apply but I think this is some food for thought.
 
a very intresting idea, and cerainly stands out. I'm just wondering something; the unamed person, do they remeber what has happened but be unable to relate it, or is it lost to them as well?
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
You could make it real or even make it a societal construct.

If you've ever read Clan of the Cave Bear, the Neanderthals have a ritual whereby they banish a member of the tribe to the spirit world (or something like that as I recall). The banished person is basically erased, as far as the tribe is concerned. It does something mentally to the rest of the tribe, so that they truly think the person is dead even though the person is still standing in front of them. The banished person does in fact die. Of course, it works differently for Ayla because she's human, and her brain doesn't have the Neanderthal wiring that allows this effect to take place.

Anyway, one example of something along the lines of what you are talking about, but where there is no real physical change, just a psychological one.
 

Queshire

Auror
Hmm.... that actually sounds familiar, I think I heard about something a lot like that in another book, but I can't remember it.

Personally, I suggest making it just a social concept, nothing magical, the unperson is just an unperson to their culture.

I don't think it'd matter if it'd cause a paradox, the person doing the unaming wouldn't even know that they did it, so it wouldn't matter if there was a paradox.

The un-naming sounds extremely powerful, like god-level powerful. As you suggest it, the person would be unoticible, more then invisible, and all his actions would have to become undone after he did them, if he took a bit of food then it would grow back, if he cut someone then they'd heal, etc, and so on.
 

Helen

Inkling
So I've been kicking an idea around for a while in the latest rendition/rewerite of my current novel about what I call "The Un-naming."

To un-name someone (in my world) is to erase their existence and destroy their soul. The past, present, future are gone but the Nameless one doesn't die - they just have no purpose. They are basically ghosts as their actions have no effect on anyone or anything as their "fate" has been erased and they will never be reborn.

I'm wondering if this is even a good idea or even plausible because it raises so many questions - like if their past is erased and they are the direct reason why such and such event occured will you create a paradox and so on and so forth. Or would it be that the events occured, but no one could remember how they got to the state their in because the memory of the Nameless one is no more and they will have no further role to play in the future?

Is this a good idea? In need of a more fleshed-out approached? Or is it a thought that can be added but is the "great debate" of this fantasical world where people threaten to have someone un-named, but no one knows how to go about doing it or if it has ever been done (for who could remember?)?

Thoughts? Comments? Questions? Concerns?

I'm hungry.:smoke:

I think it's a great idea. Needs fleshing out, but a good idea. I can already see the bestselling novel and the blockbuster franchise :)

It kinda sounds a bit like LOGAN'S RUN, where everyone over 30 has to die. You could use that as a model - those who are about to be UNNAMED run away and are pursued by the soldiers of those who do the UNNAMING.

Or how about those who have already been UNNAMED find a way back to wreak havoc and the good guys have to re-UNNAME them.

Or how about your android hero comes back in time to prevent the child of a future hero from being UNNAMED.

There's your trilogy right there :)
 

ThinkerX

Myth Weaver
Jasper Fforde did something like this with his 'Shades of Grey' - certain very real objects and people were deemed 'invisibles' and to actually admit to being able to see them was a major social faux pas - possibly with criminal implications. (the lives of the main characters were complicated because they had one such character living in their house but couldn't do anything about him, because that would mean admitting he existed in the first place.)

CJ Cherryh in her 'Wave Without a Shore' had a similiar concept: a class of social failures on a colony world (including the native aliens!) who were arbitrarily declared 'invisibles'. That situation eventually blew up dramatically with riots and revolution.

In the real world (more or less) there is something vaguely similiar in the more superstitious corners of the world - like the middle east. There, entire segments of the populace believe absolutely that 'sorcerers' have real powers. Get on the wrong side of such a sorcerer, have him hit you with a curse, well, the unfortunate local in question is treated as a 'dead man walking' by everybody, including himself. (Used to be some short, weird snippits of this in connection with the first Gulf War and 9-11). The victims religion, protective measures, ect, were all seen as completely inadequate to forestall doom.
 

Janga

Minstrel
It kind of reminds me of the book Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay, except it is a kingdom/land that is forgotten. You should check it out as it may open ideas for you that you haven't considered.
 
a very intresting idea, and cerainly stands out. I'm just wondering something; the unamed person, do they remeber what has happened but be unable to relate it, or is it lost to them as well?

That's one of the things I am considering as well. The character I would have this done to played a "huge" part in the war that is started and later became a blood-traitor. He's spent the last 10,000 years trying redeem his actions and the role he played in the start of the war. But because there are so many facets and I would hate to lose him as a character - it makes me wonder if I could have him be unnamed but he is able to plant his ideas into others as one of the powers he has is to infiltrate dreams. Since so many people dismiss their dreams he would have no real effect on events.

Thanks for all the suggestions and the books that seem to have an idea like this already. I'll definitely check them out. I'm a little surprised (but not really) that there were concepts already out there. Makes me wonder how original any of my ideas are....
 

JCFarnham

Auror
Thanks for all the suggestions and the books that seem to have an idea like this already. I'll definitely check them out. I'm a little surprised (but not really) that there were concepts already out there. Makes me wonder how original any of my ideas are....

The trick is to not worry about having original ideas. Now I'm not the kind to say its impossible because honestly bestselling authors do it tri-yearly plus, it's just hard work and comes with practice and being widely read. The real thing we should push for is well written stories and perhaps to tred most untrodden paths through "unoriginal ideas". New perspectives and that.

Basically what I'm trying to say is if you're extra inspired by an idea then you should write it :) you never know!
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
I just wanted to add a little note though it appears you are well on your way.....
What if your characters underwent a sort of memory erase when they became unnamed, but without the social consequences? And people are afraid that someone could just erase them and send them back out into the world without knowing whether what they know is real or not and something happened during one of the rituals, leaving someone aware their memory had been tampered with? I had a character and I thought about doing just that..... erasing her memory, but leaving just enough so she knew she was missing it.
 

Queshire

Auror
On a related note what ani brought up, I considered doing a punishment in a more sci-fi story getting your memories wiped and being turned into a baby, instead of a death sentence you get another chance at life.
 

Phin Scardaw

Troubadour
what if an Unnamed could find, steal, or create a new name, and return from the side of the Forgotten?

everyone wears blinders. in your own neighbourhood, how much do you really look at your surroundings? you take most of it for granted, and so it escapes your notice. there's a lot of blind spots for gods, monsters, and ghosts to hide in, even in reality. a god could prevent anyone perceiving him by bending light around him. Anyone looking directly at the god would just see the line of light that had been diverted, like looking around a corner.

so maybe in your story there are forces that bend people's minds away from the unnamed.

there's also the possibility of an unnamed character finding a relic or spell that allows him or her to have some small amount of personal fate. so they can direct things, interact briefly with others, and have an effect on the world, hopefully enough to push along a plot that would involve renaming, or regaining the erased name. the conflict of such a story would then arise from: How best to use the small amount of influence one has, and how to get more if needed. As the story progresses, there can even be degrees of erasure, or transparency. Perhaps the erased character can use stronger spells to become more tangible - but at a terrible price!
 

Rikilamaro

Inkling
Another suggestion for a similar concept is Terry Goodkind's Chainfire. The characters use a spell to erase the memory of someone from all the other's memories. It almost works except for the counteraction of the Sword of Truth. There are three books that deal with the resolution of this spell, and it may be helpful reading.

I like the idea, especially the part about affecting dreams. It sounds promising and intriguing. There may be similar concepts out there, but that doesn't mean your spin on it won't be surprising and original. :)
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
It's so interesting how a concept like this can be used and used again by so many people, and yet it manifests in each one's work so uniquely.
 

Taytortots

Minstrel
To be honest, the first thing I thought about was The Dementers Kiss in HP. It's a similar concept.
That said, I really do like the idea. I can see how it would be a great aspect of the World, and the story. If done right, it would be very interesting.
I think you're right, it does raise a lot of questions, but that can be a good thing if you want this to be part of your plot. As long as you can flesh out the details and have answers to all the questions, I think this is a really intriguing idea. I'd be interested to see where it goes.
 
Thanks everyone. You've given me some new insights and some new questions. Of course, now I thought I something else and I think I'm just being slightly unfocused, however.....

What about this concept - my MC has led an awful life due to the role she would play in the death of the Gods. Since one of the gods (in order to save their own life) bless/cursed her with immortality to allow her to seek vengeance on the gods that tormented her, how about my MC looking to become the one unnamed? Since in my world there is the cycle of life, death, rebirth, she wants nothing more than to die and be done. As she's lived for 10's of thousands of years now - she is wondering if the Fate Goddess she spoke to led her on a wild goose chase and there is no way to be unnamed or the Fate Goddess was trying to show her a way that her immortal cycle could be broken and she can be reborn into a "normal" less prophetic life.

Would people read that? It's seems rather morbid. But I'm wondering if that would make a better "sub-plot" for the MC to be the one that wants to be Un-named versus it be a punishment inflicted on someone else. Hmm....now I've given myself something more to consider.

Thoughts?
 
Thanks everyone. You've given me some new insights and some new questions. Of course, now I thought I something else and I think I'm just being slightly unfocused, however.....

What about this concept - my MC has led an awful life due to the role she would play in the death of the Gods. Since one of the gods (in order to save their own life) bless/cursed her with immortality to allow her to seek vengeance on the gods that tormented her, how about my MC looking to become the one unnamed? Since in my world there is the cycle of life, death, rebirth, she wants nothing more than to die and be done. As she's lived for 10's of thousands of years now - she is wondering if the Fate Goddess she spoke to led her on a wild goose chase and there is no way to be unnamed or the Fate Goddess was trying to show her a way that her immortal cycle could be broken and she can be reborn into a "normal" less prophetic life.

Would people read that? It's seems rather morbid. But I'm wondering if that would make a better "sub-plot" for the MC to be the one that wants to be Un-named versus it be a punishment inflicted on someone else. Hmm....now I've given myself something more to consider.

Thoughts?

it sounds quite effective for a concept, and adds a nice stinger if you first reveal that un-naming is a punishment THEN reveal the MC's goals. I'd definatly read that :)

also, on th idea of someone who wants to be unnamed, it made me think of something else; would it be possible to only partially un-name someone, because I can see lots of tactical uses for someone who's 1/2 unnoticable and intangible as a servant/agent of some sort? just thourying here, but it jumped out at me.
 
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Phin Scardaw

Troubadour
personally, I'd have a much easier time relating to a character who'd been punished (justly or unjustly) by being unnamed and wanted to get back to life rather than a character who's so old (yet not very wise if she wants to give up on life) and bent on suicide. at that point, she functions more as a goddess herself, being immortal with self-destructive motives that go against human nature - so it is an interesting arc for a character, but I would be careful undertaking such a story. The ending in particular would probably need a twist for me to feel emotionally satisfied once the climax had passed. I wouldn't want her to succeed in dying, but I'd want to see her evolve past her death-wish, maybe going from immortal human to actual goddess.

if she's leading a "prophetic life" it would be more gripping if the prophecy is fulfilled, perhaps in ways totally unexpected; or if it turns out that the prophecy was initially misunderstood and only at the end of the story does your protagonist see the true meaning of the prophecy, and the way of fulfilling it that frees her.
 
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