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Lie and Liars

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
Yeah I was thinking along those lines, thanks to the comments here. Specifically for my orcs. Altearth orcs came into the world during the later Roman Empire and have adopted that model. They have their own emperor. But they're also monotheistic, so we get a form of Caesaro-papism there. I'm picturing the orc priests (shamans) praying to the sun god as a technique for discerning truth. All orcs would certainly believe in this and as you say would adjust behavior accordingly. This power would have the weight of both the emperor and the priesthood (shamanhood?) behind it. Easily abused, too. And of course outsiders wouldn't believe in it.

More fodder!
 

S J Lee

Inkling
similar ideas abound as regards prophecy, rather than lie-detection. So many stories about people who see the future/the truth and either do or don't talk about it - and get disbelived/punished/get away with a lie or silence is usually more interesting than simply "the priests are believed"

Laocoon

Cassandra - Wikipedia

or, for a VERY god example of the "oracle" choosing NOT to tell the truth...

Gattaca - the NON-GM human finally gets caught at the very end of the tale...but it turns out the doctor was onto him all along! But chose to let him "pass" the tests....
 
There's another thing which could come into it (which gives another story direction if you will). If magic is rare and unknown for the majority of the people, then there's the very real posibility that even if you can't use magic to detect lies someone will claim that he can.

If characters don't know what magic can do, but they do know it is powerful and it can do a lot, then someone who is good at judging if people are lying could just claim that he has that magical ability and be believed. Some people are great at this or at fooling people into trusting them. It could very well give someone a nice court position for a lower noble.
 
N mages who don't know each other and aren't allowed contact with each other. Make the mages think there are only n-1 (or even n-m where m is less than n) other mages. Also, don't use mages who can read minds without jazz hands and fancy words, just so you can slap their hands down and deny them dessert if they try to ask about the other mages.

(By the way, was the OP talking about spells that binarily detect lies, or mind-reading?)
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
>By the way, was the OP talking about spells that binarily detect lies, or mind-reading?
I was focused mainly on detecting lies. The binary part was the subject of some discussion--that it's not really a binary choice. I agree with that and would give more credit to the author who took that into account, than one who presented the magic as a simple matter of lie/truth.

Mind reading, which is also magic (in a fantasy novel, anyway), would be another matter. That could lead to some interesting storytelling, with the mage wrestling with the jungle of another mind--emotions, self-deception, hopes, fears, analytical thought, sense impressions, etc. Interesting storytelling challenges for the author, as well. I don't think I'd wade into that jungle unless the mind reading were central to the story.

I've tried picturing the scenario with N mages (don't mess with him, he's an N mage!), but I miss. Eight mages in a room, but seven of them believe there are only seven. Or does the eighth also believe he's one of seven? I presume there is a ninth person, the one who is being tested. So the mages do a "reading" and report. Are you suggesting all eight would reach the same conclusion? If it were a split jury, what would that tell the king?
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
I think the King would also have to b a little skeptical of any answer his mages provided...they might be lying themselves, and even in collusion ;)
 
>By the way, was the OP talking about spells that binarily detect lies, or mind-reading?
I've tried picturing the scenario with N mages (don't mess with him, he's an N mage!), but I miss. Eight mages in a room, but seven of them believe there are only seven. Or does the eighth also believe he's one of seven? I presume there is a ninth person, the one who is being tested. So the mages do a "reading" and report. Are you suggesting all eight would reach the same conclusion? If it were a split jury, what would that tell the king?

No no no, not eight mages and a suspect in a room, not at all. Instead, send eight mages one at a time into a room where the suspect is tied alongside a guard and the king or lord's right hand man who is in on the trick, and tell each of them that six (or fewer) other mages will be cross-referencing them. The rare chance that a mage will try a question like "how many interviewed you before me?" can be prevented by having a policy for the mages to only ask directly relevant questions, and another policy stating that the mages should know each other as little as possibly, ostensibly to prevent cross-contamination but really so they don't know about the extra mages.
 
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