People have been offended by orcs for close to a hundred years now. It's called subtext.
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Is this fantasy race design offensive?
- Thread starter Jabrosky
- Start date
People have been offended by orcs for close to a hundred years now. It's called subtext.
Ghost
Inkling
I just wanted clarify something I wrote earlier. I don't mind the loincloth, face paint, neck rings, earlobe stretching, etc. I was speculating that all of those things rolled into one picture could be the cause of some of the negative reactions, and it would help Jabrosky to ease off some of them if he's worried about offending folks. I don't think any one of those aspects is the problem, but lumping them all together doesn't help.
These comments trouble me. I hope you won't thinking I'm picking on you, Queshire, but I have to address this.
Readers aren't stupid. Readers are diverse and they come from varying backgrounds. Coming to conclusions the author didn't intend doesn't make all of them stupid. In fact, plenty of us readers are smart enough to see through a thinly veiled attempt at switching out ethnic people for nonhumans. I think it does a greater disservice to the readers, and to the cultures you're leeching off of, to see this as a solution. There's a lack of respect for the readers, implying they're too stupid to see past cheap tricks.
Most people aren't offended when someone writes about tribal black people, but they become wary because it's easy for tribal people to be exoticized, demeaned, and condescended toward. There's a very long history of it in my country, and it continues to this day. Besides, many people were more offended at the Nazi issue. I think we all want both parties to be as human as possible in their portrayal without caricatures on either side. It looked to me like people were calling for Jabrosky to develop them further, not to scrap them completely.
And, frankly, I think fantasy could stand a hell of a lot more non-European types.
What do you end up with if your people have no flavor to them and you're too afraid to describe them? I realize you're geared toward writing nonhumans, but many folks are not. We can't all play it safe for fear of offending. It also takes away from the setting when the cultures are so generic nobody even knows what the people look like or what they wear. Don't make readers do all the work. That's the author's job.
I think it's safe to say that no matter what anyone writes, someone somewhere can and will take offense. Maybe that particular author made a mistake in conveying a concept, or maybe that particular reader is a sensitive little flower. Whatever. It's not worth the effort of making your novels "offense-proof" because there's no such thing.
These comments trouble me. I hope you won't thinking I'm picking on you, Queshire, but I have to address this.
Readers aren't stupid. Readers are diverse and they come from varying backgrounds. Coming to conclusions the author didn't intend doesn't make all of them stupid. In fact, plenty of us readers are smart enough to see through a thinly veiled attempt at switching out ethnic people for nonhumans. I think it does a greater disservice to the readers, and to the cultures you're leeching off of, to see this as a solution. There's a lack of respect for the readers, implying they're too stupid to see past cheap tricks.
Most people aren't offended when someone writes about tribal black people, but they become wary because it's easy for tribal people to be exoticized, demeaned, and condescended toward. There's a very long history of it in my country, and it continues to this day. Besides, many people were more offended at the Nazi issue. I think we all want both parties to be as human as possible in their portrayal without caricatures on either side. It looked to me like people were calling for Jabrosky to develop them further, not to scrap them completely.
And, frankly, I think fantasy could stand a hell of a lot more non-European types.
What do you end up with if your people have no flavor to them and you're too afraid to describe them? I realize you're geared toward writing nonhumans, but many folks are not. We can't all play it safe for fear of offending. It also takes away from the setting when the cultures are so generic nobody even knows what the people look like or what they wear. Don't make readers do all the work. That's the author's job.
I think it's safe to say that no matter what anyone writes, someone somewhere can and will take offense. Maybe that particular author made a mistake in conveying a concept, or maybe that particular reader is a sensitive little flower. Whatever. It's not worth the effort of making your novels "offense-proof" because there's no such thing.
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gerald.parson
Troubadour
My two cents... who cares? If people get offended, oh well. At least you sparked some sort of reaction or emotion. People are offended by the smurfs, the carebears, fat albert, the list goes on and on. I am offended by this thread, that won't stop people from posting. ( I'm really not, just saying). I do however fine the drawing humorous, and I don't know if that was the angle you are shooting for. I find it funny in general that if the picture was of a white caveman I doubt the notion of offending anyone would even come up. I think the only issue you will have is how you depict other cultures in this setting, or other races. If you still have this "black" culture picking bugs out of their hair and across the way whitey is driving around in spaceships, then yeah, I think people will look into more and have some issues. But if all your cultures are in a similar epoch of cultural development then whats the worry?
Pfft. Little blue socialists. :rolleyes2:
- Thread starter
- #45
Jabrosky
Banned
Here's a new design for my character (WARNING: frontal nudity):
http://jabrosky.deviantart.com/art/Nzinga-the-Dinosaur-Huntress-292840141
Admittedly it's not much better in quality as a drawing, but I did try to address the criticisms against the first design. Gratuitous jewelry has been removed, the body pain is green for camouflage in jungle vegetation, and the woman's colors are more like those of a normal African than an alien from a parallel world. I've also added a couple of ritually inflicted scars on her forehead; these were cut as part of an initiation rite.
http://jabrosky.deviantart.com/art/Nzinga-the-Dinosaur-Huntress-292840141
Admittedly it's not much better in quality as a drawing, but I did try to address the criticisms against the first design. Gratuitous jewelry has been removed, the body pain is green for camouflage in jungle vegetation, and the woman's colors are more like those of a normal African than an alien from a parallel world. I've also added a couple of ritually inflicted scars on her forehead; these were cut as part of an initiation rite.
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sarouchka94
Acolyte
Hi,
Honestly your idea isn't bad but it seem too bad pale skinned people against good dark skinned people, think you would have more impact if you used different medium to transcribe your idea, like for exemple races that aren't even human, or something like that. And you have to bear in mind that not everything is black and white, look at the Germans during WWII, I'm sure not all of them were nazi, some of them even were perhaps very good people, some other had good idea to change the system and perhaps they have been corrupted, also all the propaganda that the nazi did definitely had a way to reach people, especially young one... Basically what I want to say is that, if you're going to talk about racism it would be interesting if you give all of his psychologycal aspect, how it can be provoqued, why...etc, to give more complexity to your story.
Besides, about your picture, I think it's a bit too stereotype, I mean look, black skin, plus tribal attire, hunter... What comes first in the public mind is primitive, it isn't your fault, it's just the way things are, it just that all these years of racial hatred, somehow programmed people.
Hope I could be of some help
Honestly your idea isn't bad but it seem too bad pale skinned people against good dark skinned people, think you would have more impact if you used different medium to transcribe your idea, like for exemple races that aren't even human, or something like that. And you have to bear in mind that not everything is black and white, look at the Germans during WWII, I'm sure not all of them were nazi, some of them even were perhaps very good people, some other had good idea to change the system and perhaps they have been corrupted, also all the propaganda that the nazi did definitely had a way to reach people, especially young one... Basically what I want to say is that, if you're going to talk about racism it would be interesting if you give all of his psychologycal aspect, how it can be provoqued, why...etc, to give more complexity to your story.
Besides, about your picture, I think it's a bit too stereotype, I mean look, black skin, plus tribal attire, hunter... What comes first in the public mind is primitive, it isn't your fault, it's just the way things are, it just that all these years of racial hatred, somehow programmed people.
Hope I could be of some help
sarouchka94
Acolyte
Oh sorry I didn't see you had posted a new image, but I can't see it I don't why. Anyway I also wanted to add, that I don't mean at all to offend you, it just was my honest opinion. And in any case good luck for you story.
Shockley
Maester
In my opinion, I think it's always best to defer to a large group of people who say they are being offended. To do otherwise is a bit like telling someone they don't feel a certain way.
That said, if you don't find your work racist than go forward. Just based on what I've seen here, you're a far sight better than Lovecraft, Kipling, Howard, etc. on their least racist days - I wouldn't worry about that during the writing process, and I hope your completed work speaks for itself.
That said, if you don't find your work racist than go forward. Just based on what I've seen here, you're a far sight better than Lovecraft, Kipling, Howard, etc. on their least racist days - I wouldn't worry about that during the writing process, and I hope your completed work speaks for itself.
You can acknowledge that people might feel a certain way, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with their feelings or cater to them. I'd am hesitant to suggest that literature should be written in a manner such as to avoid a majority of any group. Much of the strength of literature, particularly as social commentary, rests in the willingness of the author of risk offense. Many books of merit are banned in certain locations precisely because they offend a large group of people.
So I second your statement about going forward. I don't think the author should ever feel obligated to defer to those who are offended. You have to be realistic and acknowledge it, to yourself if no one else, but that's about it.
kadenaz
Scribe
make their eye bulbs black, and make their pupil gray, this should do
I think it depends on why people are offended because I think it can be a huge clue as to what you need to work on.
People get "offended" by all sorts of crazy stuff, but they also get offended by shallow portrayals, exaggerated stereotypes and a lack of individualization within the particular group. Whether "offense" is a reasonable reaction or not, I don't know, but those all happen to be signs of bad writing as well.
Ouroboros, I hope you don't mind if I use your reaction as an example....
I honestly feel that if the picture, with all of its key characteristics, had been done by a professional artist with a realistic color palette, it wouldn't have been offensive to anyone at all.
Something people really don't like is to be made into a caricature, and that's something which can happen just by doing something poorly. If people are getting offended by your work, it may really be that your writing needs work.
But you can really screw up trying to avoid offending people. According to my classes in college, that happens in business all the time. So my advice:
Be mindful when people are offended, but only if they've actually seen your work.
Balam Ka'ana
New Member
Straighten the hair. Make it long maybe make it red. You know, add an atypical element to the design and it may not seem as blatant to the reader.
Honestly, kudos to you for writing a story where the main character has dark-skin.
Maybe people should look at this in another way. Since the majority of fantasy stories feature characters with pale skin, we could say that they are portraying a stereotypical race like that. So technically, your story is not stereotypical at all.
If you want you could have your characters dress in very simple clothing during everyday life and for special ceremonies and events they could dress up in the garb that you had planned for earlier. Also, include feathers. A lot of scientists these days portray dinosaurs to have some type of feather, whether downy feathers or the decorative plumes we usually crave after from birds.
So your character could even have feather clothing or accessories. If you are too worried about people thinking that you are portraying a racial stereotype, you can also add slight elements from other cultures. Take for instance the Australian Aboriginal tribes, some of them would cover themselves in mud even though they have dark skin. Also, I don't see a problem with bright colored paints, may native "primitive" races used them to this day (btw these so-called primitive races are actually more in tune with the land and knowledgeable than we are in some areas). You can even have these paints kind of glow in the dark...
I personally think that people would only see your story as being racist if you keep reminding people of the differences in skin color. Plus, it all boils down to how you plan and write your story. I forget the exact story but there is this one author whose character was reptilian. He never actually came out and said it until almost the ending of the book, but by the little hints he left here and there (like mentioning the swishing sounds behind the character -- which turned out to be the character's tail). Another thing you can do is have the color be seen differently in your world than on Earth. That way even light-skinned people might have a slight color change to their skin -- this would be a matter of perception due to the way light refracts. Plus, unless you are writing a picture book, most people might forget the true color of your main characters once the story gets underway. Unless color is absolutely important, you don't have to focus on it. Take for instance my story, I make a strong distinction between the colors of my characters because I want the reader to realize how different a dark-skinned character would look like in a world where everything is white and white is treasured. So unless you are stressing color in the story, you don't really have to dwell on your character's skin color.
Maybe people should look at this in another way. Since the majority of fantasy stories feature characters with pale skin, we could say that they are portraying a stereotypical race like that. So technically, your story is not stereotypical at all.
If you want you could have your characters dress in very simple clothing during everyday life and for special ceremonies and events they could dress up in the garb that you had planned for earlier. Also, include feathers. A lot of scientists these days portray dinosaurs to have some type of feather, whether downy feathers or the decorative plumes we usually crave after from birds.
I personally think that people would only see your story as being racist if you keep reminding people of the differences in skin color. Plus, it all boils down to how you plan and write your story. I forget the exact story but there is this one author whose character was reptilian. He never actually came out and said it until almost the ending of the book, but by the little hints he left here and there (like mentioning the swishing sounds behind the character -- which turned out to be the character's tail). Another thing you can do is have the color be seen differently in your world than on Earth. That way even light-skinned people might have a slight color change to their skin -- this would be a matter of perception due to the way light refracts. Plus, unless you are writing a picture book, most people might forget the true color of your main characters once the story gets underway. Unless color is absolutely important, you don't have to focus on it. Take for instance my story, I make a strong distinction between the colors of my characters because I want the reader to realize how different a dark-skinned character would look like in a world where everything is white and white is treasured. So unless you are stressing color in the story, you don't really have to dwell on your character's skin color.
Justme
Banned
People who look for things to be offended by are the thought police of any forum. Do not degrade your ideals and ideas to curry favor with them. Once you give them an audience, they will try to take the stage. I've told several of the people who you describe. They read the words they have heard elsewhere in everything they see and try to make you responsible for their indignation.
These people are the most intolerant of anybody and wave the banner of toleration to mask the complete absence of that very trait within themselves for any opinion other than their own.
I remember posting a thread about society punishing women because of their beauty and their femininity not playing the roll in which so many have become accustomed and two female members took exception to my using the term "our" which I used in the context of the women within society. I made no remark about anyone being owned and they would except no explanation. They demanded I change the entire wording, before they would participate in the discussion.
I told them that I refused to tip toe around their mental minefields and moved on. Sometimes you have to sidestepissues that mean exactly nothing in the scheme of things.
These people are the most intolerant of anybody and wave the banner of toleration to mask the complete absence of that very trait within themselves for any opinion other than their own.
I remember posting a thread about society punishing women because of their beauty and their femininity not playing the roll in which so many have become accustomed and two female members took exception to my using the term "our" which I used in the context of the women within society. I made no remark about anyone being owned and they would except no explanation. They demanded I change the entire wording, before they would participate in the discussion.
I told them that I refused to tip toe around their mental minefields and moved on. Sometimes you have to sidestepissues that mean exactly nothing in the scheme of things.
Jess A
Archmage
That's a good idea. Crimson red hair would look cool, or very pale hair. Perhaps she could have violet eyes. That would look interesting, and not entirely unrealistic either. She could even have skin patterns, like tigers (beneath the fur). Stripes or spots or different colours in different areas. It would match the dinosaur world. I agree that feathers would be a cool addition to the outfits, or big feather crests or feathers in the hair. Dino skulls, clawed 'gauntlets' or something attached to the hands, using claws taken from dinosaurs.
Overall, I like that she has black skin. I also adore dinosaurs and would be interested to read this story when it's done.
Honestly, it probably isn't possible for me to care less about whether someone is offended over what I write or how I portray any given characters. I'm not setting out to offend anyone, and if someone does take offense that is their problem, not mine. I see no reason to cater to the hypersensitive by altering my work.
SeverinR
Vala
Could go the way of Star trek.
Skin color of blue, green. Non-traditional skin color will not automatically trigger stereo-typical racism. There will always be similarities which might trigger them anyway.
Skin color of blue, green. Non-traditional skin color will not automatically trigger stereo-typical racism. There will always be similarities which might trigger them anyway.
