A problematic heroine

[Ireth]

Yet another post about my Hunchback of Notre Dame adaptation. Woo. I'm taking a bit of a break from figuring out the villain's motivation and inner struggles to focus on the heroine, Diana, and the problems she presents to me as the storyteller.

Setting aside the issues of her disability and curse for the moment, her situation is problematic. At the most basic level, she's a woman who's being abused for something she can't possibly help. This is a tragedy in any time period, but being set in the Middle Ages presents even more problems. Women in that age were considered the property of their fathers, brothers or husbands; they had no rights of their own, no means of standing up for themselves.

Having such a character as my heroine, and trying to make her at once realistic and likable, is going to be tough. It would be unheard of for a woman of that time period to stand up to her husband for any reason, let alone abuse of any sort. I want her to be a strong character, but that's tricky when she's constantly being beaten down and stripped of all self-esteem; having her rely on Vincent's influence to gain her inner strength seems like a not-so-appropriate message. So what can I do?

 

[Rullenzar]

Honestly, I think your really just over thinking this to the point where your smashing your idea into tiny little pieces. It is essentially your story, your ideals, your choice, your influence. You already have a pretty neat concept and I say role with it. Be a person who starts a controversy because of your story. People don't need to agree with what you write and most people will remember your story because you dared to be different and presented them with something they didn't expect.

A person can be strong even if their source of power comes from another regardless of gender or race. It doesn't make them any less of a person.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Not every woman was beaten abused and tortured just because she was legal property of her father or brother. Many women were strong individuals, and many men were sympathetic to other humans. The fact is, you don't want your daughter living with you (and off you) for her whole life. A father wants his daughter to marry and make a good wife and have children of her own. It does not benefit him to have medical bills and an unmarriageable daughter... because unless he's got money put away, he may have to live with his son-in-law in his later years. Class has a big part in what is realistic, so I would want to know more about her family, their social status and wealth before really being able to suggest anything else.

While you can portray a husband or father as an abuser, the reality is that while someone is legally allowed to beat his wife... many men publicly denounced the behavior and many more did not fulfill their privilege because they didn't need/want to.

While I am within my rights as a parent to tan my kids' hides... I realized after doing it a few times that it is neither effective, nor gratifying. Most people don't feel powerful when beating a child, and it is usually only sick people who really enjoy hurting someone weaker than they are, when the violence does not gain them something they want.

A quick suggestion? Make her good at something. Make her an excellent dancer or seamstress, or weaver. Women who had skills were valued not only by those who bought their wares, but also by their husbands who benefited from their skills. In the early renaissance, the rising merchant class meant a much better life for many people, and there's no reason a woman from a merchant family with a good income wouldn't be a valuable asset. If her father could put up a sizable dowry, she could perhaps marry a minor noble (whose bank account might be rather dry about then). In that case, her father would have her trained in etiquette and she may have been sent to a richer aunt's house to learn how to be a little lady. Women usually cared for girls, and many never had much contact with men in the world, instead raising children from a young age in a household. If you want some sort of ideas, Italy in the 1400's was quite spectacular, and while the renaissance was slower in coming north to England, Italy's people and events were well documented and you might get loads of ideas.

 

[Ireth]

Honestly, I think your really just over thinking this to the point where your smashing your idea into tiny little pieces. It is essentially your story, your ideals, your choice, your influence. You already have a pretty neat concept and I say role with it. Be a person who starts a controversy because of your story. People don't need to agree with what you write and most people will remember your story because you dared to be different and presented them with something they didn't expect.

A person can be strong even if their source of power comes from another regardless of gender or race. It doesn't make them any less of a person.

That's very true. I have no doubt that there were strong women back then, but portraying them with historical accuracy given the conventions of the time is troublesome.

Not every woman was beaten abused and tortured just because she was legal property of her father or brother. Many women were strong individuals, and many men were sympathetic to other humans.

"Humans" being the key word here. Diana's curse is the main reason she's being abused at all; it's because she's a werewolf that Martin sees her as less than human, not worthy to be married to him, or any other man for that matter.

The fact is, you don't want your daughter living with you (and off you) for her whole life. A father wants his daughter to marry and make a good wife and have children of her own. It does not benefit him to have medical bills and an unmarriageable daughter... because unless he's got money put away, he may have to live with his son-in-law in his later years. Class has a big part in what is realistic, so I would want to know more about her family, their social status and wealth before really being able to suggest anything else.

Those are things I'll definitely need to think about. Good of you to bring them up.

While you can portray a husband or father as an abuser, the reality is that while someone is legally allowed to beat his wife... many men publicly denounced the behavior and many more did not fulfill their privilege because they didn't need/want to.

While I am within my rights as a parent to tan my kids' hides... I realized after doing it a few times that it is neither effective, nor gratifying. Most people don't feel powerful when beating a child, and it is usually only sick people who really enjoy hurting someone weaker than they are, when the violence does not gain them something they want.

True, but then again, Martin does feel he needs to beat Diana in order to gain information about the werewolves so he can eradicate them. He won't listen to her entirely truthful insistence that she doesn't know a thing about them; he feels he can't trust her since she's one of them, regardless of the trust they no doubt spent months or years building up together as friends and later as a couple.

A quick suggestion? Make her good at something. Make her an excellent dancer or seamstress, or weaver. Women who had skills were valued not only by those who bought their wares, but also by their husbands who benefited from their skills.

True too, but even having skills in artistry or what have you does not necessarily make a strong character, even if it helps them be more developed. Rapunzel in Disney's Tangled had a bazillion and one hobbies and skills described in the opening song, but none of them helped her in any way during the rest of the movie. It all came down to her incessant longing to live her own life and be free of her tower, with occasional help from her magic hair and trusty frying pan. Diana has artistic skill, mostly in drawing or painting, and while it may help her express her emotions and communicate with Vincent on some level, she needs more than that. Being stripped of all sense of self-worth for years on end has to have scarred her psyche.

 

[Queshire]

You know, I never really believed the whole women were property thing. Sure they may be property on paper, and they may not have legal rights, but they still would have had sort of an unofficial power of their own. The old nagging wife trope is as old as dirt and there's that old saying that behind every great man was a great women. Yes, they had less power then Men, but that did not make them powerless, it just meant that they had to be subtle.

 

[Caged Maiden]

People don't need to agree with what you write and most people will remember your story because you dared to be different and presented them with something they didn't expect.

Actually, while I'm all for writing what you like... I would advise you to be "different" very cautiously (sdo it where it will have maximum impact, like in her werewolfism, his torturing her for answers, etc.). While I hope this suggestion is pertaining to plot twists, unconventional magic or something related, if you are going for a historical feel, which you have specified you are, I would not reinvent the wheel too much. It will not work in your favor. Taking societal issues in the correct context is somewhat important. There were social norms and life was not a huge free-for-all. Laws were strict and punishments harsh, and people were bound by their classes. Readers are smart, educated and many of them have read books which are set in historical times. When you start to reinvent too much, you run the risk of insulting and offending them irreparably. I have been so insulted by books and have simply quit reading a few chapters in and brought the book to Goodwill..... I'm usually not so fickle though, and tend to go the distance, but rarely has a book redeemed itself to me.

Historical romance is pretty set in its concepts (the virgin locked away from the world by her father because she's too damn beautiful, the roving womanizing lord who forgets everything else, suddenly in love with the beautiful too young to marry girl after she cleans his house)...... I've read about two dozen books with that exact story line..... My point is that these novels, I guess are meant to entertain a reader though they disregard historical social norms, like the age at which most people married, who they married, and the weight of the law and how it was enforced.

If you want a deeper, richer world, I encourage you to do a little research, keep asking questions when you get stuck (we all do it), maybe post a couple things here and ask people for a little critique, and take any criticism by the well-read people here as constructive. This forum is awesome for help with research, and I have completely re-thought things after I was given new perspective. I too aim for historical accuracy, and only reinvent things I really want, introducing concepts which work within the framework of a realistic world.

 

[Caged Maiden]

You know, I never really believed the whole women were property thing. Sure they may be property on paper, and they may not have legal rights, but they still would have had sort of an unofficial power of their own. The old nagging wife trope is as old as dirt and there's that old saying that behind every great man was a great women. Yes, they had less power then Men, but that did not make them powerless, it just meant that they had to be subtle.

Right on. When the middle class began forming, women became important figures in their husband's businesses, being not only productive but strong. There is no one standard, but many men valued their wives and saw them as welcome partners in raising children, running a business, and seeing to daily tasks associated in running even a small household. Men and women both EXPECTED to marry and have children. They wanted a comfortable life in their older years, and children ensured that (only noble families typically had many children after the plague. Most families spent their accumulative resources on a few well-raised children). If you were middle class you might be able to tell your parents who you wanted to marry, but their job was to arrange a bargain with the most beneficial partner, and for most people, love was a learned thing, not a romantic notion. A submissive, skittish, beat-down wife is nothing more than a mouth to feed. Who wants that?

 

[Caged Maiden]

That's very true. I have no doubt that there were strong women back then, but portraying them with historical accuracy given the conventions of the time is troublesome.

not for me. If you want to know something specific, ask.

True, but then again, Martin does feel he needs to beat Diana in order to gain information about the werewolves so he can eradicate them. He won't listen to her entirely truthful insistence that she doesn't know a thing about them; he feels he can't trust her since she's one of them, regardless of the trust they no doubt spent months or years building up together as friends and later as a couple.

Yeah i get your story, I wanted to give you an example of history. I know when you throw supernatural elements in it messes with stuff, and I actually like that he's torturing her. I tortured a pair of werewolves in one of my stories; it was fun.

True too, but even having skills in artistry or what have you does not necessarily make a strong character, Diana has artistic skill, mostly in drawing or painting, and while it may help her express her emotions and communicate with Vincent on some level, she needs more than that. Being stripped of all sense of self-worth for years on end has to have scarred her psyche.

First with this... painting isn't something very popular. While anyone can draw with charcoal, mixing pigments was not so easy. I make illuminated manuscripts in real life and it is a very complex process historically. Unless she had money, she would not be able to paint.

And, I only meant if she were skilled, it would add depth and value to her as a person, making her more developed.

There are peopl all over this world that I wonder about; how can they have hope? But they do. I was emotionally abused by some men in my life who I thought I loved.. and it's hard, but you get on with it (or roll over and die, which it doesn't sound is her style).

best wishes.

 

[Ireth]

That's true. I'm not sure exactly when the middle class started to form, though -- was it around as early as the 1400's?

A submissive, skittish, beat-down wife is nothing more than a mouth to feed. Who wants that?

Excellent point. It raises the question of why Martin would keep Diana around if she's stubbornly refusing to tell him anything about the werewolves (as Martin sees it, anyway); at the start of the story she's been in the tower for six years, since the age of fifteen when their engagement was broken. Martin really has no use for her except as a possible lead to find out where the werewolves are, which she doesn't know anyway. But Martin is too stubborn and narrow-minded to think that perhaps Diana is telling the truth when she tells him that. To him, Diana is little better than a dog who happens to be able to communicate with him and draw/paint pretty pictures in her abundant spare time.

In the original novel, Frollo's adoption of Quasimodo was his kindest deed; in the Disney adaptation it became an act of penance which he undertook against his will. I'm really not sure what to do with Martin in regards to this. He seems to feel that he needs her, if for nothing else than information, but at the same time he's cruel to her in trying to extract that information. He certainly doesn't give her anything else but the basics: food, clothing and not-too-comfortable lodging in the belltower. He could throw her out into the streets with no more qualms than if he turned away a stray dog from his door. But then he'd lose what he perceives as his only chance at finding the werewolves to exterminate them.

 

[Ireth]

not for me. If you want to know something specific, ask.

I'll be sure to take you up on that offer. Thanks!

Yeah i get your story, I wanted to give you an example of history. I know when you throw supernatural elements in it messes with stuff, and I actually like that he's torturing her. I tortured a pair of werewolves in one of my stories; it was fun.

I torture my protagonists regularly. It's fun, but it makes them hate me. XD

First with this... painting isn't something very popular. While anyone can draw with charcoal, mixing pigments was not so easy. I make illuminated manuscripts in real life and it is a very complex process historically. Unless she had money, she would not be able to paint.

Okay, point taken. I'll go with charcoal sketching then, that's much easier.

On another note, making illuminated manuscripts in real life sounds fascinating. Is that a job or just a hobby? [/off topic]

 

[Caged Maiden]

That's true. I'm not sure exactly when the middle class started to form, though -- was it around as early as the 1400's?

yes. you could read about the Medici, they ruled loads of stuff and were more powerful than nobles. See after the plague, common people could move around where before they were tied to the land they worked for nobles. They sought better nobles who paid more, had lower rents, and many became small land-owners themselves. They began having smaller families and pooling their resources, so their son had land, and his son became an affluential farmer for himself. The plague directly killed surfism Ravana just posted about the death of feudalism, let me get that link... http://mythicscribes.com/forums/research/2615-royal-noble-courts-3.html

Excellent point. It raises the question of why Martin would keep Diana around if she's stubbornly refusing to tell him anything about the werewolves (as Martin sees it, anyway); at the start of the story she's been in the tower for six years, since the age of fifteen when their engagement was broken. Martin really has no use for her except as a possible lead to find out where the werewolves are, which she doesn't know anyway. But Martin is too stubborn and narrow-minded to think that perhaps Diana is telling the truth when she tells him that. To him, Diana is little better than a dog who happens to be able to communicate with him and draw/paint pretty pictures in her abundant spare time.

that's for you to determine, it's your story, but I'm sure you can think of a reason. Most women and men did not marry before 23 unless they were upper class. Even then, while they might be engaged at 15.... they might not marry until 18 or something. Also, many of the young marriages that took place were not consummated until 16, as anything could be written into a contract, and parents were concerned with protecting their children, after all, they were marrying them for profit. What good does it do you to have your 14 year old daughter die in childbed? Marriage then took place at roughly the same ages it does today, with children being born earlier in the marriage rather than at an older age. In the 1550's or something church records recorded the ages of all brides, and most were between 23 and 27.

If that is the dynamic you want, then you need to explore it a little more. I think if I were your villain, I'd not have hung on for 6 years. I would have given up by then, so maybe there's a reason he can't kill her, and that's why the best he can do is lock her away....

In the original novel, Frollo's adoption of Quasimodo was his kindest deed; in the Disney adaptation it became an act of penance which he undertook against his will. I'm really not sure what to do with Martin in regards to this. He seems to feel that he needs her, if for nothing else than information, but at the same time he's cruel to her in trying to extract that information. He certainly doesn't give her anything else but the basics: food, clothing and not-too-comfortable lodging in the belltower. He could throw her out into the streets with no more qualms than if he turned away a stray dog from his door. But then he'd lose what he perceives as his only chance at finding the werewolves to exterminate them.

Maybe he's not the one in charge... I don't know, this is the part where you need to hammer out the details. Don't fret though, I'm sure it will get there. Just keep writing until it comes. I wrote a book once and I didn't even notice I had a major flaw, until one day I thought, "Why wouldn't he just go there instead? It's easier, and it's what I would do...." needless to say, I had to change some stuff, and you can too when you go back later. Just keep trucking for now, because it's easier to think of things when the work is fresh in your mind and creativity is flowing.

 

[Caged Maiden]

On another note, making illuminated manuscripts in real life sounds fascinating. Is that a job or just a hobby? [/off topic]

It's a hobby. I have one up here in the gallery I accidentally posted. It's two monks writing. I used goache, for the first time on that painting and fell in love.... HAHA I'm super nerdy, sorry. Another good resource for historical art is Grahamguitarman. He knows loads about Leonardo and stuff. I asked him some things. I'll try to find that post as well. http://mythicscribes.com/forums/research/2597-ask-me-about-art.html

Send me a PM any time and ask away. I do this research a lot! Look at my costumes too! they're in my album! anihow's Album: Costumes

 

[Ireth]

yes. you could read about the Medici, they ruled loads of stuff and were more powerful than nobles. See after the plague, common people could move around where before they were tied to the land they worked for nobles. They sought better nobles who paid more, had lower rents, and many became small land-owners themselves. They began having smaller families and pooling their resources, so their son had land, and his son became an affluential farmer for himself. The plague directly killed surfism Ravana just posted about the death of feudalism, let me get that link... http://mythicscribes.com/forums/research/2615-royal-noble-courts-3.html

Oooh, that sounds like it'll come in useful.

that's for you to determine, it's your story, but I'm sure you can think of a reason. Most women and men did not marry before 23 unless they were upper class. Even then, while they might be engaged at 15.... they might not marry until 18 or something. Also, many of the young marriages that took place were not consummated until 16, as anything could be written into a contract, and parents were concerned with protecting their children, after all, they were marrying them for profit. What good does it do you to have your 14 year old daughter die in childbed? Marriage then took place at roughly the same ages it does today, with children being born earlier in the marriage rather than at an older age. In the 1550's or something church records recorded the ages of all brides, and most were between 23 and 27.

Hmmm. Interesting. I was under the impression that women typically married as early as the onset of puberty, while men tended to wait until early adulthood. In that case, I might tweak Diana's age a little bit.

If that is the dynamic you want, then you need to explore it a little more. I think if I were your villain, I'd not have hung on for 6 years. I would have given up by then, so maybe there's a reason he can't kill her, and that's why the best he can do is lock her away....

Maybe he's not the one in charge... I don't know, this is the part where you need to hammer out the details. Don't fret though, I'm sure it will get there. Just keep writing until it comes. I wrote a book once and I didn't even notice I had a major flaw, until one day I thought, "Why wouldn't he just go there instead? It's easier, and it's what I would do...." needless to say, I had to change some stuff, and you can too when you go back later. Just keep trucking for now, because it's easier to think of things when the work is fresh in your mind and creativity is flowing.

Someone in another thread (can't recall which one) brought up the idea of blackmail as a means for Martin to ensure that Diana is kept locked in the tower. Maybe someone else blackmailed HIM to ensure that he kept Diana alive and safe -- a close relative of Diana's, perhaps? That could cause a lot of tension between them, and it'd be fun to play around with.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I'm a fan of blackmail....

About marriage age... people DID marry young sometimes, but it was almost exclusive to royalty and the highest ranks. And like I said, a prince might be married at 8, but he would have lived apart from his wife and they would have been properly married with the marriage consummated after puberty. For middle and lower class people, it was much more a reasonable age... remember these people did not WANT 9 children to live... they couldn't support them. They wanted a few successful children to make more money and join in the family business.

I mentioned historical romance books, which I have read a fair share of... and age of marriage is one of the things that turns me off of them in general. It's completely fictitious as are many other aspects, like the clothes and the way men perceive women, taking liberties by sleeping with all manner of servants and such without repercussions. Once you get into cultures and laws and societal structure, it is very different, and though different genres have different standards, I have read few well-researched historical romance. Sad but true. Fantasy readers, however strike me as a more well-researched bunch, and so when I write love stories (which I'm a real sap for) I try very hard to do so from a historically plausible, if not accurate perspective.

Society was not totally different than now. Parents wanted to do their best by their children. There are parents now who allow their young teens to be married, but I wouldn't do it (while I personally feel there's nothing wrong with kids having sex at about 14 or 15, as long as they use birth control).

Also, another note about marriage..... when a man and woman married, all their children became legitimately both of theirs... I don't have a citation for this, it's in one of my middle ages books. So that denotes men and women might marry at a later age, but already have some children, which it was just accepted would be raised by both parents. (This might refer to second marriages, I'm not sure, but it seemed plausible to me, so I use it in my stories).

Okay see I could go on all day.... I do love history.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Another thing about children. Sometimes they were sent away. Like if Diana's father was a country farmer, he might have sent her to town to be a weaver or something, learn some skills and earn some money, in which case she would be in someone else's care, an aunt or something, or a noble's household with which he was friends. There's tons of possibilities, and it largely depends on the setting, which I don't know anything about. How big a town is she in? How close to bigger towns? I have never read or seen the original story, so I'm having a hard time drawing inspiration to help you from that.

 

[Caged Maiden]

One more thing... men waited until their apprenticeships were finished to marry. After all... who wants a man without a job? I just googled Marriage in the Middle Ages.. and the top three sites are total crap, not researched, no works cited... just a load of opinions and speculation.

When you do research, it starts to make a load of sense, and if you need any further help with societal structure and this sort of thing, just ask and I'll dig through my sources (which are able to be documented and based off of facts rather than speculation). Just because a princess was married at 5 doesn't mean that these sites should say, "and girls were married as young as five....." those two statements are not equal. Hmm.... sorry we're way off your original subject right now, so I'm going to stop... and leave you to your story, but I'm here if you need a resource. I've done some pretty extensive research on the renaissance and middle ages, and am available if you need something ironed out a little.

best wishes

 

[Ireth]

Thanks a ton for all the advice, anihow. I don't have a lot of time to respond to everything you've said right now, but I'll PM you with specific questions when I get more spare time.

 

[Deleth]

You know, I never really believed the whole women were property thing. Sure they may be property on paper, and they may not have legal rights, but they still would have had sort of an unofficial power of their own. The old nagging wife trope is as old as dirt and there's that old saying that behind every great man was a great women. Yes, they had less power then Men, but that did not make them powerless, it just meant that they had to be subtle.

The line from "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" comes to mind: "The husband may be the head of the household, but the wife is the neck, and she can turn the head any way she wants." I paraphrase, of course.

\give me a word, aaaany word...

 

[Caged Maiden]

I love that movie.... I can't think of a thing about it I didn't enjoy. I was brilliant.

 

[Ireth]

*steers this thread back on topic* ^^;

Suggestions about developing and rounding out Diana's character are all well and good, but I still need a means for her to keep herself emotionally strong in the face of the abuse Martin deals out to her on a daily basis. She's led to believe she's an inhuman monster who needs to be kept locked up lest she attack and kill the people of Leeds. I've been trying to think of ways that Diana might try to defy Martin to loosen his hold on her, or prove both him and herself wrong about her character. Any suggestions on things along those lines?