Corrupting your hero?

[Caged Maiden]

I am very, very curious about THIS comment!

Sorry I deleted my post because I was advised my openness might be offensive to SOMEONE out there SOMEWHERE, so I sent it to Ireth for consideration. I am probably suffering from some sort of personality disorder, so if you know a bit about psychology, I'm happy to share...

If I were a D&D alignment... I'm not sure where I would fall, and I wanted Ireth to know that her character need not be irredeemable after crossing the line...nor even need a good reason for doing it. I have done it many times and not merely because of some sort of addiction or obsession. Sometimes I do it just because I WANT to, and that's it. Am I a good person, loyal friend, loving wife, devoted mother? Yeppers. All of those... but I have had one foot over the line most of my life, and see how great I turned out?

If her character drinks human blood why does he need a grand reason? Maybe because he has fangs is enough. It would be for me. But then.... I'm a grayish character, and like I said, probably not the stuff true fantasy is about..... now dark urban fantasy, or psychological thrillers... that I'm probably perfect for.

 

[Caged Maiden]

And who would step forward to avenge him?

Hmm... good question.

 

[Phin Scardaw]

Sorry I deleted my post because I was advised my openness might be offensive to SOMEONE out there SOMEWHERE, so I sent it to Ireth for consideration. I am probably suffering from some sort of personality disorder, so if you know a bit about psychology, I'm happy to share...

If her character drinks human blood why does he need a grand reason? Maybe because he has fangs is enough. It would be for me. But then.... I'm a grayish character, and like I said, probably not the stuff true fantasy is about..... now dark urban fantasy, or psychological thrillers... that I'm probably perfect for.

I don't think writers should ever have to apologize for anything they write. I mean, if we're not getting people thinking, or challenging beliefs, then we're probably not doing our job, right?

I like dark urban fantasy a lot. I think a lot of people do.

I just started watching "Breaking Bad" (which is set in Albuquerque, I might point out) and watching a Good character start doing Bad things is very entertaining. We've all got the devil in us, and those of us that can embrace that probably have the best chances of also embracing the angels in us - although they're far less horny than the devils! (pun intended)

 

[Caged Maiden]

yeah in my case, I think it's the lack of remorse that concerns me though.... HAHAH I love breaking bad. Yeah I've been to some of those places!

 

[Erica]

Fear can also contribute to corruption. Conquering one's fears is a theme that comes up in fiction of all stripes. Succumbing to fear can lead to a temporary fall, from which the hero fights his way back by discovering (or rediscovering) his courage.

Mistrust is another one. Thinking he's been betrayed could make him turn on the people who were his former allies.

 

[Penpilot]

I think a hero can fail and make bad choices and still remain the hero. Readers dig that stuff. The fall of a hero and their redemption, that's classic. I think the key is just showing their struggles with to drink or not to drink. And as said above, a person can do something bad and know they're doing something bad and still do it. It's why it's called temptation. It's like when you're a kid and you sneak a cookie before dinner. You know it's wrong, but you do it anyway. Sometimes you might feel guilty for doing it. Others times, you might revel in getting away with it. Eventually you have to make a choice. Do you keep sneaking cookies or stop. That's the turning point.

 

[Phin Scardaw]

I think the key is just showing their struggles with to drink or not to drink. And as said above, a person can do something bad and know they're doing something bad and still do it. It's why it's called temptation. It's like when you're a kid and you sneak a cookie before dinner. You know it's wrong, but you do it anyway.

Yeah, maybe Olan can go to Bloodsuckers Anonymous? I'm sure there must be a twelve-step program or something for vampires...

;-)

 

[Ireth]

Yeah, maybe Olan can go to Bloodsuckers Anonymous? I'm sure there must be a twelve-step program or something for vampires...

;-)

*giggles* "I am a nice vampire, not a mindless killing machine. If I am to change this image, I must first change myself. Humans are friends, not food!" I'm sure there are vampires who would try that kind of thing.

 

[Rullenzar]

I deleted my posts aside from the very first one as I'm disappointed in myself for getting caught up in a childish argument over nothing. Not fair to Ireth or anyone else to have to read that nonsense. I apologize to Ireth.

On the side of your story issue, i think I saw someone bring up a good point. You could have someone your character trusts trick him into having human blood. Swapping out whatever kind of blood your having him eat with humans and either having him like it or not like it. If he likes it he could ask for more thinking it's fresh pigs blood or whatever and once he is done eating his friend drops the bomb on him and he feels disgusted with himself. He is still the same character like this and he's been corrupted .

Something else you could try is putting his life in danger if he doesn't take any humans blood. Either coming up with something like you must have humans blood once every so many days/years etc.. because the non-human blood can't keep you alive forever. Or maybe he's not as powerful without having human blood and has to have some in order to save someone he loves down the line. Another possibility is he's on his death bed after some kind of event and the only way he can heal is by having humans blood. Does he take it or choose death?

 

[Steerpike]

I deleted my posts aside from the very first one as I'm disappointed in myself for getting caught up in a childish argument over nothing. Not fair to Ireth or anyone else to have to read that nonsense. I apologize to Ireth.

It's OK. Nothing the judicious application of Puss N' Boots eyes won't remedy. You simply employ the following image, and no reasonable person reading past this point in the thread can continue to be upset:

On topic, I still think these external factors get away from what Ireth is talking about and make a less compelling redemption. Why put in place excuses for the character's actions at the outset? Why not just have him do the act for no other reason than he wanted to, without having been tricked into a dependency or without a self-interest like saving his own life. With those other factors in place, you don't really ever need a redemption because he's not really at fault to begin with. At least not entirely. I still prefer the idea that he does it because at that moment in time he wanted to, and so he commits the evil act and has to live with it and redeem himself (or not) later.

 

[Rullenzar]

On topic, I still think these external factors get away from what Ireth is talking about and make a less compelling redemption. Why put in place excuses for the character's actions at the outset? Why not just have him do the act for no other reason than he wanted to, without having been tricked into a dependency or without a self-interest like saving his own life. With those other factors in place, you don't really ever need a redemption because he's not really at fault to begin with. At least not entirely. I still prefer the idea that he does it because at that moment in time he wanted to, and so he commits the evil act and has to live with it and redeem himself (or not) later.

If he just wants to do it this would mean he lets the urge to drink blood take over. It's not very compelling to read 'he just wanted to do it' and there isn't really a redemption in this as he's no longer human but a creature who feeds on blood. Technically he's not doing anything wrong and if he just wants to do it then he believes he's not in the wrong.

So, that being said if we scroll up to previous posts they stated 'letting the urge take him would change how Ireth wants to portray her character'. So your kind of contradicting what you said earlier. The options I provided may not be the best but in each case he's forced to do something he swore not to and in his mind he needs to be redeemed for it. I'm not saying anyone is wrong here just confused on why your changing your position now.

 

[Steerpike]

So, that being said if we scroll up to previous posts they stated 'letting the urge take him would change how Ireth wants to portray her character'. So your kind of contradicting what you said earlier. The options I provided may not be the best but in each case he's forced to do something he swore not to and in his mind he needs to be redeemed for it. I'm not saying anyone is wrong here just confused on why your changing your position now.

I'm not changing it. I'm not saying he is letting the urge take over. That would compel him to act whether he wants to or not. What I took from Ireth's original post is that he has control of himself, he knows he is wrong, and yet he does it anyway. That's what I mean by he just wants to do it. Not that he is being compelled. And if that's the approach, I would just depict the character as going through with this act with no justification that he can fall back on. That's when you have someone who has to be redeemed. If he's justified in some way, there is no need for redemption.

 

[Rullenzar]

From what you are saying, he is in complete control of himself, he knows it is wrong, and he does it any way.

This is different, i didn't see this before. From posts at the start people were saying no matter what he will not drink blood and that's who he is. Nobody said anything about him not caring and starting out as any normal vampire who changes his stance later. See this makes sense but I was still operating under the illusion that Ireth still wanted him to be goody goody from the get go.

 

[Steerpike]

See this makes sense but I was operating under the illusion that Ireth still wanted him to be goody goody from the get go.

Ah. I was viewing it differently. Well, the good thing is that Ireth has a lot of feedback to go on from many points of view, and so do others that read the threads. Maybe we'll get to see the end result

 

[Ireth]

I deleted my posts aside from the very first one as I'm disappointed in myself for getting caught up in a childish argument over nothing. Not fair to Ireth or anyone else to have to read that nonsense. I apologize to Ireth.

Apology accepted.

On the side of your story issue, i think I saw someone bring up a good point. You could have someone your character trusts trick him into having human blood. Swapping out whatever kind of blood your having him eat with humans and either having him like it or not like it. If he likes it he could ask for more thinking it's fresh pigs blood or whatever and once he is done eating his friend drops the bomb on him and he feels disgusted with himself. He is still the same character like this and he's been corrupted .

That's possible, though he'd likely know right away that what he's drinking isn't anything he's tasted before -- human blood is quite different than animal blood, both in flavor and quality. He'd probably taste it and ask "Hey, what's this? It's different," and then the bomb is dropped. So it could possibly work.

Something else you could try is putting his life in danger if he doesn't take any humans blood. Either coming up with something like you must have humans blood once every so many days/years etc.. because the non-human blood can't keep you alive forever. Or maybe he's not as powerful without having human blood and has to have some in order to save someone he loves down the line. Another possibility is he's on his death bed after some kind of event and the only way he can heal is by having humans blood. Does he take it or choose death?

I dunno about the first idea; I like the thought of there being vampires who can survive on non-human blood and resist the temptation to drink it forever. Thinking in terms of actual beverages, animal blood is analogous to water (necessary for survival, period) while human blood is more like wine (not necessary for survival, but tastes better than water and potentially addicting). I could go further with that analogy and say that human blood is like alcohol in that it actually dehydrates a vampire, making them thirstier so they'll drink more.

As for the third option, that's more or less what happens in the scene I was considering corrupting the hero in in the first place. He's just escaped from the villain and his mooks, they're hot on his heels, and he's been going without food or rest to not waste time and escape them faster. He finally makes it to safety, and he's weakened and starving. (Vampires can't starve to death, they just go a bit crazy.) The first living being he meets is a young human boy, whom he immediately tries to bite out of sheer desperation for blood. In the first draft he doesn't actually bite him before another vampire intervenes and feeds him some animal blood, but I may change that.

That's actually close to what happened to turn the villain into a vampire -- as a human he was poisoned at a banquet, the poison screwed with his mind, and he drank his wife's blood to try and save himself, accidentally poisoning her in the process. She died for real, but he was cursed by the Crone goddess and became the first vampire.

On topic, I still think these external factors get away from what Ireth is talking about and make a less compelling redemption. Why put in place excuses for the character's actions at the outset? Why not just have him do the act for no other reason than he wanted to, without having been tricked into a dependency or without a self-interest like saving his own life. With those other factors in place, you don't really ever need a redemption because he's not really at fault to begin with. At least not entirely. I still prefer the idea that he does it because at that moment in time he wanted to, and so he commits the evil act and has to live with it and redeem himself (or not) later.

*nodnod* I set up a moment like this about midway through the novel, only to subvert it on purpose for plot reasons. Olan tracks down a human villain who wronged his friends or family somehow (in the first draft it was a man who tried to rape his sister, but I'm really thinking about changing that in the second draft), and just when he thinks he's caught him, another vampire swoops in and steals his kill. This vampire leads Olan down to the underground city of the vampires, where he meets Conall and realizes fully what drinking human blood over an extended period does to a vampire.

This is different, i didn't see this before. From posts at the start people were saying no matter what he will not drink blood and that's who he is. Nobody said anything about him not caring and starting out as any normal vampire who changes his stance later. See this makes sense but I was still operating under the illusion that Ireth still wanted him to be goody goody from the get go.

I see what you're getting at here. Olan drinks animal blood right from the get go -- his first victim is a dog belonging to his father. It's human blood he despises most and wants nothing to do with; that's the driving force behind him leaving home, to keep his human family safe from himself. I suppose that might still make him a "goody-goody" to some people, but I think it's normal. Even Conall, the villain/vampire prototype, didn't drink human blood for his first meal -- though that was mostly because someone stopped him from mistakenly murdering the brother of his poisoner rather than the poisoner himself, who had been hanged before Conall rose from the grave. He ended up killing a sheep instead. And after Conall created the second vampire*, he brought him a deer to feed from rather than a person. It was only after he killed his second wife in their wedding bed that Conall gave up trying to resist the urge for human blood.

*this act was not on purpose -- Conall told his human friend to leave when Conall got hungry, but the friend ran instead of walking away and Conall's instincts took over; then he was overcome with remorse at draining his friend and tried to "give the blood back", making him drink it and thus turning him. The friend was less than pleased when he woke up three days later, but eventually forgave him.

 

[The Din]

What if he were forced to kill someone to join some exclusive group? Perhaps he finds himself a bum/hooker/convict/addict who seems hellbent on offing themselves anyway, only after he sees what he's done does become horrified and set about redeeming himself.

Maybe he finds someone about to jump off a bridge and solves the problem for them, only to meet a family member who tells him that the victim just likes bridges or something.

 

[Ireth]

What if he were forced to kill someone to join some exclusive group? Perhaps he finds himself a bum/hooker/convict/addict who seems hellbent on offing themselves anyway, only after he sees what he's done does become horrified and set about redeeming himself.

Maybe he finds someone about to jump off a bridge and solves the problem for them, only to meet a family member who tells him that the victim just likes bridges or something.

I don't think assisting someone with a suicide would necessarily have the same psychological effect as killing someone in cold blood. If, say, it's a bum or a hooker who's been mugged and/or beaten and is close to death anyway, then he'd consider it a mercy killing. He wouldn't feel much remorse about it at all. And I think, after some consideration, that it's much the same with vengeance -- if the person deserves to die for their crimes, then he'd have very little if any regret. The starving situation I mentioned above might be the most angst-inducing and drive him toward wanting redemption the most. Or just the killing of any innocent person who neither wants to die nor deserves to.

The physical corruption is another issue. It partly involves the slow, painful growth of wings from the vampire's back, beginning after they first drink human blood and continuing until they either die or achieve redemption. The wings begin small and weak, and grow bigger and stronger more quickly with every human the vampire kills after the first. Very corrupted vampires eventually attain the power of flight. The wings only grow out when the vampire is in full direct sunlight. The upside is, since the story is set in super-rainy Scotland, how often is that going to happen? The downside is, for those who haven't yet achieved flight, their wings are heavy and awkward, not to mention terrifying to any human who sees them in the sunlight.

I bring this up mostly because physically corrupting my hero by giving him wings etc., especially if he gets corrupted without a moral qualm about the action he partakes in to have earned it, runs the risk of making him little better than the villain. He might decide that he should take advantage of his wings, make them grow as big and strong as possible by killing lots of humans, and then move somewhere sunny so he can make use of them to kill even more humans. I'm not interested in writing a journey-from-hero-to-villain story with this guy, so that will have to change somehow.

 

[Phin Scardaw]

All you need to ask yourself is this:

What would push an adolescent gay vampire to suck someone to death???

probably not very much, actually...