Should good always prevail over evil?

[Sigillimus]

I asked myself this question when I was outlining for the novel I plan on writing in the June Novel Writing Month, and to be honest, I think it's a worthy topic of discussion for this forum. I only wondered about this subject because I'm intrigued by the idea of a darker ending to my novel and wanted to see the forum's opinion about it. I went and did some research to see some topics about the question itself, and I got this interesting little tidbit.

The death of our heroes might not be what we crave but how many times have we had cliffhangers with the heroes in a perilous situation only to find them easily escape and defeat their nemesis in the next page or chapter? The fact that good does always win makes you wonder why any character bothers becoming a villain. They have their plans for fortune or revenge but at the end of the day, it's just not going to happen. They will be defeated and the hero moves on to the next problem that arises. If evil was allowed to win once in a while, it would shake up the stories we have.

If we know that in the end of a book good will always prevail over evil, it can become predictable even before we open to the first page.

So, as the title states: do you think that good should always prevail over evil?

 

[Ophiucha]

I don't think there is anything wrong with good prevailing over evil, but some stories are better told with a downer or bittersweet ending. As with so, so very many of these questions, I would say it depends on the story. Stephen King loves a good downer ending. So does China Miéville. And George Orwell. Lots of authors, actually.

 

[Ravana]

Nothing is "always." Ever. Not even the foregoing.

 

[The Realm Wanderer]

I actually prefer it when the good guys lose, or when their mission is completed but with many losses, maybe even including themselves. I was actually watching I Am Legend recently and thought of it when reading through this because as any know who have watched it, the guy dies in the end to save the cure from being lost. I hadn't read the book so I wasn't expecting him to die. I really liked it and thought it a much better ending than him escaping from a horde of Darkseekers in his basement which wouldn't have been very realistic.
But really, whether the good guys or bad wins in the end is really down to the story. But whatever the case, you should always leave the outcome shrouded, so the result can go either way. Like with the Harry Potter books, the whole world knew before the last book was released that Harry was going to win because that's what the books were. About love overcoming evil and so the ending was not in any way a surprise to me. however the author did kill off a lot of characters getting to that ending so that's something.

 

[Dr.Dorkness]

I believe good should prevail evil. but at great sacrifice. like the heroes own life. for that, how tragic it may seem is the greatest good one can do.

but I think that it is more important that the protagonist should prevail, may (s)he be good or evil.

 

[Amanita]

That really depends.
In a story, where an absolutely evil Dark Lord wants to conquer the world having him win wouldn't be a very satisfying ending. Especially if this means the destruction of the entire world. I don't know how others feel about it, but I tend to feel a bit cheated if I'm following a few characters trying to save the world for an entire story to seee them die and the world be destroyed in the end.
Stories closer to reality are a different matter. In a fight between "light grey" and "dark grey" it could be the right thing for the story to have "dark grey" win and maybe form a tyranny but not without any hope for someone else overthrowing it one day.
Generally, I'm not fan of stories, that end with absolutely no hope for improvement of the situation somewhere in the future and would avoid them, but I know there are also plenty of people who like apocalyptic stories.

 

[GameMasterNick]

I think that the Dark Lord winning has a lot of merit. He's the one with the army of troops, the one with the spies in every tavern and the one with the power to cover the lands in an age of darkness. I'd like to see a few more novels in the tragic vein, where the reader learns from the start that the Dark Lord wins and then learns the events that lead to that rise in power... or even ones similar to Rin and Len Kagamine's song Daughter of Evil and its simultaneous sequel.

Epic fantasy needs to be turned on its ear more often. A few less Drizzts, Fizbans or Elminsters and a few more Frodos, God Emperors, Elder Gods (Lovecraftian Horrors seldom lose!), or Doros.

Then there's the Hasbro rule.

When Hasbro bought out Wizards of the Coast in 1999 one of the first things they did was issue a directive that evil cannot win. It can overcome good for a short time, but in the end good must prevail.

A lot of writers who had previously written WotC novels, adventures or supplements were very upset with this. While the mainstream novels usually involved the heroes winning, the facts of the 'censorship' made quite a few unhappy. The furor has since died down.

 

[Digital_Fey]

If good always wins, it becomes boring and predictable (or, heaven forbid, cheesy). If evil wins, it gets pretty damn depressing. That's why I admire authors who can, as stated before, write a 'grey' or 'bittersweet' ending. A compromise between the hero's ideals and the harsh reality; a balance of loss and gain, sadness tempered by hope. That way, the story moves closer to reality and the reader will (hopefully) feel more connected to the character(s) suffering than if everything had turned out just fine.

(As a by-the-way rant, I get really tired of books in which the good characters always survive. What's the point in holding your breath during cliffhangers if you *know* the character will be saved at the last minute, simply because they are the Good and Noble Protagonists? *grumbles*)

 

[ade625]

I like the bittersweet endings myself. That's why I was a big fan of the ending of Joe Abercrombie's first trilogy.

Evil winning outright can make the entire events of the novel seem pointless. Generally I need at least some development, in character or world for me to get enjoyment out of the ending. A good twist similar to those suggested before might be to make the villain win, but be changed for the better by the events of the novel, to give some semblance of hope.

But hey, you could have evil triumph, only to tell the story of the new rebellion in the sequel!

Just to go a tad on a SPOILERY tangent here, to me, the final fight of Harry Potter seemed to show that when it's good versus a much more powerful evil, good can always hope to triumph on a technicality. The whole wand thing made me double take, and search back through the book to get what was going on. (This is following on from The Realm Wanderer's assertion that the Harry Potter books were about love overcoming evil, which is what I'm sure Rowling meant to convey).

 

[Waltershores]

I plan on making an attempt in the future in which evil destroys good. Ill let you know how bad it turns out!!

 

[Ophiucha]

I've had two stories where 'evil' triumphed, but in both cases, it was with the protagonist's aid. In one story, Moonglade, which was already post-apocalyptic, the world was populated by nagas/naginis, and females were far, far more abundant than males (there are seven males and a few hundred women). They only knew of one city left, ruled by a bitter Queen. The story followed her daughter, a sort of basilisk!nagini, who could kill anything with a glance or touch. There is a group looking to kill the Tree of Life (... they are also Vikings; the cold led to only females being born, btw), but the only thing that could do it was the Princess' touch. In the end, after traveling out of her castle and seeing what the world was, she did it. In my current WIP, The Dust of Dead Desire, the protagonist is also a grossly unreliable narrator, and we are merely led to believe that he was working for the good of his people (he is King), but by the end, it is hard to really believe he is working for anyone's interest but his own.

I also have a bittersweet ending in a project I left behind years ago, where the Queen of the Elves and Vampires (she is an elf, married to the King of the Vampires) kills both herself and her husband, who she does love dearly, so that the elves and vampires become a single species - to keep civil war from breaking out. It is made pretty clear that this is the only thing that will save her people from destruction, but she has to die and kill her beloved to achieve it.

 

[Donny Bruso]

No, good should not always triumph over evil. See Eve Forward's Villains by Necessity and you will see why. In short the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and ultimately I'm overly tired of reading fantasy where the vastly outnumbered hero and his plucky sidekick somehow manage to defeat the dark lord who no one else realized could be toppled by doing some rudimentary action.
In my quest for more realistic fantasy, I find that it tends to get darker and darker, and the outcome should never be certain. Statistically the good guys (which is a farcical term if ever I heard one, since no person is wholly good) cannot always win. Now, would you feel cheated to follow a hero for three hundred pages only to see him lose? Possibly. It all depends on how the story is told. The skill of the author is everything in this situation. Personally I think I have a way to bring it off. It might work, it might not.

Just for fun, for those of you who appreciate villains with some common sense:
Peter's Evil Overlord List

 

[At Dusk I Reign]

I have no problem with unhappy endings or with the triumph of evil. They make an (un)pleasant change from the usual fare. It all depends on perception, of course, and what you imagine the author's role to be. Personally, I view fiction (regardless of genre) as a means by which we can scrutinise humanity, our lives, our political/economic structures, our morality. Many individuals end unhappily - sometimes deservedly so, sometimes not. Any reflection of this fact is, I believe, welcome.

 

[sashamerideth]

I plan on my protagonist falling from grace, finding redemption, and then perish while going against one of the antagonist's trained and competent guards. Might have his companions severely injured and fleeing from defeat at the time.

I will play by the evil overlord's list of rules... completely. Think it is too well known for my antagonist to employ a child to pick apart her plans?

 

[Fnord]

The novel I wrote in middle school had a "bad-guy-sort-of-wins" ending. I don't think it goes over very well though.

Of course, there's always the option of making the Dark Lord the protagonist.

 

[The Realm Wanderer]

The novel I'm currently writing ends with tragedy for the protagonist, though he knows this full well and so tries to run from it. Too often is the main character in fantasy books exceptionally brave and heroic. Sure that's all good, and my main character is brave but when he discovers what he has to do, he doesn't accept it and carry on. He ditches and makes a break for the door. Because even heroes feel fear and it is often ignored or sidelined in books. They do usually show the characters are hesitant but then have them do it anyway, I want more where the evil is so overwhelming the protagonist chooses to run, of course backtracking later on In the end of this novel I'm writing, both sides kind of win, both gaining something.

 

[Kate]

Good doesn't always come out on top in the "real" world, so neither should it in a story. The overall story should influence the ending and who gets to triumph. I think it would be a bit off-putting if you had the good side always beaten but then win in the end, or vice versa.
While it is sometimes a good feeling to read a happy ending, it can sometimes feel like cheating if it's unrealistic. But on the other side of the same coin, no one wants a downer ending just because the writer was trying to avoid a happy one for the sake of it.

I'm working up to killing off one of my characters at the moment, but everyone's kind of morally ambiguous so the good/bad lines are a little fuzzy. I think in the end though, there'll be bitter sweetness because I'm a bit fond of some of the characters and I at least want to give them a fighting chance.

 

[Neunzehn]

It depends on what you mean by "wining". If the villain's victory is absolute, "evil forever", then It's pointless. But then how often is that really the case? I mean after all the triumph of good in stories rarely comes with the promise that evil will not threaten the world again, in fact it's often hinted that it will. Since that leaves most plots open to an evil ending, I would say there is nothing wrong (in most cases) with evil triumphing.

 

[Hioni]

I love seeing huge twists in the plots when you can scarcely tell which is evil and which isn't. JK Rowlings has one of my all time favorite characters, Snape. He was just one small portion of the story, but if you could imagine an entire plot that had his essence...
I wanna write a story in which the line between good and evil rests on the thinest edge, the boundary between good and evil are barely visible, if even there. A story in which the reader can choose for themselves which is really good and which is evil, present to them both sides of the story. I love it when Good and Evil are one and the same, Sugar filled endings give readers mind-cavities. Throw them off balance with something where both sides loose, or win, or loose and win! Make them form their own opinions and thoughts. People get too used to seeing good guys winning and bad guys loosing without really hearing much of what goes on with the opposing side. Sure, you get glimpses and dry details, but any feeling? Rarely.
To me, a good story creates Chaos in a readers mind...

-Hioni disproves of Mind-Cavities-


On a side note, why should either win? I sometimes wonder what would happen if a third party jumped them all and was all like, "SHUDDUP WE'RE TRYING TO LIVE QUIETLY OVER HERE!!" and just completely pwned everything.... It would suck as an Ending... but I think it'd be a fun thing to write as a gag....

 

[sashamerideth]

I like your side note. A story involving feuding fifedoms is resolved by a conquering Mongol Horde. A bit deus ex machina but if there were hints of that looming threat, it may just make an okay ending, or a new direction for the story.