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Thoughts on Self Publishing?

Telcontar

Staff
Moderator
I've seen variations of that Yog's Law (another version simply states "THEY pay YOU"), but that was a nice, concise way of putting it. The continued points are also valuable.

Also hadn't heard that Hocking's stuff was basically Twilight with a new skin. Hilarious.
 
Hocking wrote one series that is vamp romance, which has most of the same tropes that Hamilton established with her Anita Blake series and everyone else (Meyers included) has been borrowing ever since. The rest of her books are a variety of other subjects, none of which include vampires at all... ;) And frankly, this is the first I've heard of anyone suggesting plagiarism. Having read neither the Twilight books nor Hocking's vamp books, I can't say for sure it's not plagiarism, but I am *fairly* confident that it would have been made a big deal of, had it been.

Remember, borrowing ideas, tropes, and bits about characters is not plagiarism. You can write a story about a very young starship character with a smart alien second in command and a doctor buddy, and not have it be plagiarism. ;) And again - as much as Hockings might have borrowed from Meyers, Meyers borrowed from Hamilton, so it's a little silly to worry about it. ;)
 
On other points... ;)

"eBooks are currently in a position to overtake print as the key part of contracts, a phenomenon that forecasters said would happen in 2015"
Already happened. According to the AAP, in February ebooks represented about 29.5% of all books sold in the USA (up from 8.3% in December), outselling any other category, including outselling mass market paperbacks for the first time. It now seems likely that ebooks may represent over half the market by the end of the year, of early next year at the latest.

"The best arguments that I've heard for the self-publishing route almost invariably come from previously published authors whose dedicated readership followed them when they made the switch."
You linked to Konrath's blog - but did you read it? He's interviewed over a dozen writers who had never sold traditionally, but are now on track to make good incomes this year. While there's certainly some advantage to already having an audience - for any sort of publishing! - there's no lack of folks who are selling quite a few books among new indie writers, too. In fact - almost 40% of the top 100 bestselling ebooks were self published - and a substantial percent of those were never traditionally published. More pertinent, perhaps - about 30% of the top 100 bestselling fantasy ebooks were self published, and the *majority* of those writers were never trad pubbed. If you write a bad book, it won't sell. If you write a good one, it will.

I do completely agree about non-subsidy "self publishing service" companies. Here's the rule. ;) If they are charging a percent of your royalty, PASS. What you want is a company that will do the work you need (editing, cover, and if your computer literacy is weak ebook formating too) for a *flat fee*. Then they give you the PDFs, which you then upload to your accounts on the various ebook retailers. If someone is charging you up front and taking a percent, they are a scam (see iUniverse, Westbow, Outskirts, etc.).

Small press is a tough call. If they're not getting your book into the big chains, they're not giving you anything you can't do yourself. So really, what they're doing is giving you free editing, cover, formating, in exchange for some percent of the income. Copy editing a 300pp book might take 5-10 hours (depending on how bad the writing is - could be more but a small press just won't accept it if it's that bad). Formating takes an hour or two, and a cover takes 2-4 hours. So say 8-16 hours of work, which if you're paying for it elsewhere will cost you $800-2000. So do the math. The small press is basically fronting you that money in exchange for around half the profits on the book - quite possibly all the profits forever, since "out of print" doesn't mean much anymore. If your book sells 10,000 copies @$5 over the next six years (that's not really a lot), at a 50-50 profit split, you've paid the small press $17,500 for their 8-16 hours of work. That's a *very* high interest loan. ;) Up to you whether you think it's worth it or not.
 
eBooks have outsold single categories (paperback, hardcover OR trade...) but not the combination. They have yet to become the key negotiating point of contracts with the major presses, though smaller groups have definitely gone this way. I do suspect that may be within a year of happening instead of four.

I've read just about everything Mr. Konrath has written on that site and in his essays and agree with 95% of it. Including his admissions that most new writers starting out cannot compete with his level of success due to having those things behind him. They don't need to, as this doesn't mean they can't make a decent amount of money, but the level of success he has achieved is usually beyond many first-timers. Mainly, this is because many writers are more than willing to put in the long hours of creation... it's a passion in which we all indulge... but editing, packaging, marketing, promotions, accounting and the "back-end" are often outside of what they want to do or have the skills (knowledge + experience) to accomplish successfully.

Mr. Konrath relies heavily on freelance editors, artists and other industry professionals as well. I wholeheartedly endorse this, mainly because it's been my job for the last five years. Beyond his recommendations, few writers looking at self-publishing will find solid professionals in that market... and they'll walk right into the arms of the scammers. Fewer still will ever find his blog or other sources of solid information on self-publishing... there's a glut of poorly-written, misspelled, grammatically horrible works out there right now. Some of which may have been a diamond in the rough if the rough were edited by professionals.

I draw a lot of flak from my friends in the industry when I promote that blog. Almost every time I do, someone will email me telling me that I don't understand how the industry works these days. Biggest secret: from the largest print publisher to the greenest first-draft self-publisher (never publish your first draft... please?) no one does anymore. It's an open market in a new era, and I firmly believe that what happens now will not just determine the course of the publishing industry (which, like all industries that specialize in the arts has become quite top-heavy) but possibly define the place of the written word in the future.

Those who hope to remove editors or professionals entirely and have a writer-to-audience only route (and they seem to be gaining ground fast... some of Hocking's works are chock full of typos and grammatical errors) will produce a quality of work analogous to YouTube vs. Hollywood. Sure, there are some great "indie" films on YouTube... there are also cats flushing toilets, and the scammers haven't quite infiltrated homemade YouTube videos the way they have "self-published" books.

If you're going the self-published route, there are few (possibly no) better sources of information than that blog. And those who do follow the information advised by J. A. Konrath will already be far ahead of the average author in that arena. I'm not actually advocating for or against self-pubbing, but meant to point out in my previous post that it isn't the only option vs. trade publishing.

Amanda Hocking borrowed characters wholesale, but limited herself to ancillary characters who were not well-defined. You're right that you could write the work about the plucky young space captain... calling him James is going to require at least a nod to parody or tribute, though. I, personally, don't feel she crossed the line after reviewing some of her works... I do hope that she finds a good freelance editor for future works, but having reached success, what is she doing now? Shopping big name publishers.

Most readers who aren't Kindle fans looking for inexpensive works in that genre still haven't heard of her, even after the million dollar news stories. Most young adult fans (or fans of what my associates and I called "vampire porn" back when Anne Rice was the big name - not to malign her as she's an incredible writer!) don't read the Wall Street Journal or keep up with publishing news. She has the fortune and is now going for the fame. The marketing and distribution of the house she ultimately signs with will ensure that for her.

My hopes for the future in this arena are that the huge overhead costs of the big publishers... the massive cuts that weedle authors down to 14.9% or lower royalties on paperback, hardcover or eBooks... will encourage more people to look closely at what other options are out there.

I truly want to see the scammers exposed and the market focused on what it keeps forgetting: readers come first. Not publishers, not editors, not agents, not even the writers themselves. Every one of those positions should be focused on the reader. Writers should be focused on writing the best story they have to tell. Agents must take pains to get the best stories available to "print". (I won't discuss agents right now, my feelings on their place in the future of publishing is mixed... some are excellent pre-editors... others are 'preditors'). Editors must do more than pass a work through a spell-checker and proof for grammar; they should focus on honing the writer's craft to higher levels than they have achieved in the pre-published copy. Publishers must be all about ensuring readers know of their authors' works, providing those readers with excellent, polished versions of the tale and must not stop marketing until the last book as sold, as the saying goes.

Full disclaimer: I am a freelance writer, editor and translator by trade. I am also part of one of those 'small press' publishing companies that I probably mention more often than I should. Prior to joining this publishing group, I edited and packaged works for many self-published authors. I am not saying you need a publishing house behind you, large or small, but I did hope to point out the difference between the big "trade" or "commercial" publishers and the smaller indie houses. It isn't an all-or-nothing proposal, even though both those at the top (the big 6 publishing houses) and those at the bottom (the scammers who sell "self-publishing" packages) want writers to feel that it is.
 
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As if my above post wasn't long enough:

On flat fees versus royalty/net profit/percentages - Flat fee isn't always the way to go. Many scammers have "publishing package" deals that are flat fees and give all sorts of similar estimates to "Recoup your costs easily if you sell 10,000 books over the next five years." Groups like PublishAmerica thrive on the idea that you can pay a 'small' fee and get the same quality work as if you were published by professionals instead of doing it yourself. Their small fees can put you thousands into debt. Realistically, you're probably going to end up paying separate editors, designers and possibly marketers, sales or PR industry reps (if you truly want the benefits of full publishing) quite a bit... and that assumes you are using quality professionals and not scammers.

Remember that all contracts are -not- the same. A legit publisher will have a definite term set for a contract and will almost never demand "life of copyright" unless they're willing to compensate you for such (think advances in the upper five to six figures). Scammers love to demand this, as it means your work will never go "out of print." Many small press or e-publishers no longer offer advances at all, which allows them to assume less risk but still requires them to lay out a lot of money to get a new work off the ground. Signing with a legit publisher does -not- mean giving away rights to the work forever (good reversion clauses and definite terms prevent this). The best publishers will only request specific rights for a specific duration, and then offer an extension if you are happy with their work.

Look at the EPIC contract for an example of what writers, many small presses and other industry professionals feel is a great example of a contract for e-publishing. Scammer contracts look nothing like this... and the bigger houses are often far more restrictive. Many of the biggest names in indie publishing for speculative fiction are members of EPIC or use variations of the same contract.

I'll stop there, because I think discussing contracts and how to effectively negotiate copyright isn't on-topic in a thread on self-publishing.
 
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Here's a great blog entry on determining if you're ready for self-publishing.

Anne R. Allen's Blog: 3 Questions to Ask Before You Jump on the Indie Publishing Bandwagon

Many small presses are considered "indie publishers" by the industry and that title has been used for years (if not decades); self-publishing is self-publishing, not indie, though it tries to co-opt the terminology in order to sound better and integrate with "indie" musicians or other artists. That one's always a heated debate in places like Absolute Write when it comes up. Won't go off on those tangents.
 
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Waltershores

Dreamer
I believe that self-publishing is totally acceptable. Just make sure that the work is edited prior to submission. Traditional publishing is great, but the time it takes to get published in that manner, as well as the limited advances available make it almost not worth it in my opinion. To each his/her own however. I say go for it and good luck.

I did read a post in this thread that I disagree with that I wanted to mention. I will paraphrase.

"if my writing isn't good enough to be picked up traditionally then it has no place being self published."

I would say that this outlook would be correct if every worthy book was published traditionally, however this is not the case. Many great books are overlooked many times before they are picked up and many good books are never published. If your book is good it will be read whether traditionally published or electronically.
 

Franz

New Member
I read through this entire thread non-stop. I feel humbled by the depth of knowledge and thought that is displayed here.

I have been writing novels for more than a decade now. I have submitted to countless publishers and agents and have a drawer full of rejections. I accepted each as an indication that I was not yet ready for prime time.

Last year the company I work for had to start laying off. We shrank from twelve people down to two and it looked likely that I would soon be added to the growing unemployment line. At my age it is unlikely that I would be hired anywhere else. So in desperation I turned to self-publishing as a hope. I invested a few hundred dollars in a web site and spent most of my off-time editing and creating covers to the best of my ability.

In the last year I have published ten novels through Samshwords. By December of last year I was fairly certain that the public was not going to save me. Luckily, at about the same time, business started a small turnaround and I was saved the bread line for now (but the beast is definitely still lurking in the wings).

However, around the start of the year numbers started appearing in the sales columns. A trickle at first. By March I was selling ten books a day. By mid June that had grown to twenty five books a day. In January I recieved my first fan letter. Now I receive several letters a week asking when the next book will be out. On top of this reviews started appearing on B&N.

All of this is not to blow my own horn. It is to make a small point that I think might be pertinent. During this entire past year, I have had little time for advertising, and that primarily an occasional mention on Facebook. Like a fisherman I threw my line in the water and hoped that something would find it.

It seems to me that someone is out there looking and, once finding something they like, spreading the word. I know that my books were not perfect. I could not afford profession covers or editing (a fact that a few reviews have mentioned). However, returns are coming in and now I am starting to have a professional fix the editing and will publish new versions with (hopefully) no editing errors. The covers will still have to wait a bit.

So, to wrap this all up, I have little first hand knowledge about what is going on in the industry. I have no opinion on which way the industry will settle out. But I do know that there are people out there that want to read what I have written and, so far, are willing to find it. I would love to have a publisher come along and take some of the burden off of my back, but I do not see that happening any time soon. So, for now, I am forced to self-publish.

I have considered myself an author from the first day I penned a complete story. I now have a form of validation in the readers that love my work. For now that, and the income that is growing monthly, is sufficient.

Okay I have rambled enough.

Have a great Indepence Day weekend,

Franz
 
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Congratulations on your success with ebooks, Franz! That's great to hear.

A couple of notes on some things that were said in earlier posts:

First, according to former agent Nathan Bransford, publishers don't save much on ebooks vs. print. Here's his piece explaining that, along with thoughts on the Hocking and Konrath success stories.

Second, there's a difference between being a potential bestseller and a potential midlister or niche interest. Much as there are bestselling high fantasy works, starting with the great and mighty Tolkien's, most of us are going to wind up on a midlist or publishing modestly with small houses. I've nothing against that; if either of those worked out to sales and further books, I'd call it success. But when you know it's hard work and self-marketing either way, this tale of moderate self-publishing success holds some appeal.

The self-publish vs. traditional publishing question is a very, very close call for me. I'm pursuing the latter at this moment. But by analogy: I don't have a television and don't listen to the radio, so my TV and music are made up of a bunch of fairly successful young YouTubers (whom, frankly, I generally prefer to the Lady Gagas of the world), which makes me wonder if there is/will be a comparable bookish underworld. And whether I could succeed in it. Music and TV are not exactly comparable fields to the production of novels, however.

If I've misstated anything, you can all feel free to enlighten me... :)
 
It's past one AM and I'm only half awake, but I just read through this thread thoroughly. Probably should have done that before I posted, as my second point was much better explained by--if memory serves me accurately--Kevin. Whose positions I generally agree with.

Just a couple of things to add:

First, I may be pointing out the obvious, but I'd clarify the statement that good books get read and poorly written books don't. I think marketable books get read, with a certain level of disregard for quality. Paranormal romances are very marketable, which certainly helped Ms. Hocking. They're so marketable that it didn't matter that the copyediting in Twilight is surprisingly lousy for something out of a mainline publishing house, nor that Ms. Hocking's books are, by all allegations, riddled with copy errors. And the wildly popular Twilight isn't great writing. It's not even really good writing.

It is, however, readable. Truly poorly written books are absolutely less likely to get read. Readers walk away after a convoluted sentence or two, and we all have our limits on typos.

Second, to expand upon my last point. Thanks to affordable recording equipment, a skilled musician with a decent sound engineer's ear can create very listenable music. They can put a solid song together in a few days, make a simple music video to advertise, and upload the former to iTunes and the latter to YouTube, rinse, repeat, and make themselves a living. Few of us can write, revise, and polish a novel in anything less than a year. Of those who can, very few are good editors, and even they will need a reader or two with a strong editorial eye. Even fewer will have graphic design skills and the resources to turn out a good book cover.

I claimed the decision between self and trad is very close for me. Here's why: I edit myself with above-average skill, have a copyeditor for a critique partner, am blessed with an incredibly artistic family, and happen to love graphic design. I've put in my ten thousand hours learning the craft of writing, and to the best of my ability to tell--and according to my beta readers--I've written a solid story. And I'm a perfectionist. It may be hubris, but I don't doubt my ability to turn out a good product, even as a self-publisher. Whether it's marketable is far beyond my power to say, but it wasn't hard to come up with a couple of reasonable comp titles for my query letter.

With the bulk of the marketing probably on my shoulders either way, then, the decision really comes down to this question: is it worth the risks to try for the prestige of the traditional imprint, and the much-higher likelihood of getting the coveted label of classic? The risks are considerable. If you have bad sell-through on your traditionally published debut novel, suddenly it becomes much harder to publish a second novel. Considering how high the odds were to begin with, this equates to near impossibility. And if your second novel happens to be a sequel, will your publishing house relinquish their rights over the storyline to allow you to find a different publisher for (or self-publish) that sequel? (Honest question, here. I suspect the answer is no, but might be wrong, at least in certain cases.)

The major houses may despise self-publishers, but they'll most certainly take you if they think you'll make them money. I seem to recall a blogging agent or two noting that if your self-published book was very successful, you mention it in your query letter. If it wasn't, you don't. That seems simple enough.

As for the bookish underworld I wondered about: I'd completely forgotten about Smashwords. But I can't imagine using a service that doesn't sell through Amazon. I wouldn't use Lulu, either; some friends and I used them to put together some mini-books of selections from our group blog, and I was downright unimpressed with their print-on-demand service. CreateSpace, on the other hand, did a fantastic job with both my NaNoWriMo 2009 proof copy and with a friend's full-color children's book. If I did self-publish, I'd look into them first.
 

TWErvin2

Auror
With the bulk of the marketing probably on my shoulders either way, then, the decision really comes down to this question: is it worth the risks to try for the prestige of the traditional imprint, and the much-higher likelihood of getting the coveted label of classic? The risks are considerable. If you have bad sell-through on your traditionally published debut novel, suddenly it becomes much harder to publish a second novel. Considering how high the odds were to begin with, this equates to near impossibility. And if your second novel happens to be a sequel, will your publishing house relinquish their rights over the storyline to allow you to find a different publisher for (or self-publish) that sequel? (Honest question, here. I suspect the answer is no, but might be wrong, at least in certain cases.)

Jenna St. Hilaire,

It depends on the terms of the contract you eventually sign as to the status of your second novel.

The contract may call for the publisher to have rights of first refusal--if so a timeline would be very good--60 or 90 days. (and it may only relate to characters and books that are the same or closely tied to the first novel and its world).
The contract may be silent on this--a one book deal with no strings attached either way.

Watch out for restrictive claims on second and any future novel type language and what I would term as possible 'no competition' clauses. If they exist, they should be restrictive in scope and time with respect to the publisher's rights.

Most publishers will negotiate, at least some terms of the contract. Any publisher going for a massive grab of rights without adequate compensation is one to avoid.

It's rarely a bad idea to consult a literary attorney or have an experienced agent's representation. You'll find across the internet (and maybe even among authors you know) beliefs that one does or doesn't need representation or legal advice. Some writers cross that bridge by seeking an agent right off the bat, while others cross that bridge if they find a publisher interested in their work.

Contracts with respect to short fiction, the publisher (magazine/ezine) rarely negotiates, but there is also rarely a massive grab of rights attempt--usually only first electronic/print rights for a certain release format are requested and paid for. Still, it is wise to read and do your homework before signing (such as whether they're seeking non exclusive or exclusive rights and for how long). Agents don't represent short stories, and I suppose one could hire a literary attorney to review the contract, but for what one is likely to earn from the story--it's probably not worth it.

With self publishing, you do have the contracts with any printers/distributors you form a business relationship with, but I'm not really familiar with that and it wasn't part of your concern.

Note: What I said is based on my limited experience. There are others out there far more knowledgeable than I am.
 
In general, I agree with the above. Watch out for restrictive contracts, especially non-compete clauses. Many publishers are beginning to add these, and many of them are absolutely deadly. Watch for durations of "first refusal" rights, as publishers are now trying to push these back as much as two years past *publication* date - which means that if you sell a book, and have another book written in six months, but it takes the publisher 24 months to produce the book (not unusual), you might be left unable to sell that new book (or, in some contracts, ANY other book) for up to four years after signing the first contract.

Potentially devastating to a career.

An IP attorney can be very useful in spotting these things. Agents tend to be less so, because a) agents are not trained in law, and only the most canny/experienced agents have learned through experience how to navigate these increasingly nasty contracts, and b) it's often in the agent's best interest to convince the writer to sign anyway, even if the contract is bad - because they have lots of writers, but only a few publishers. If it comes to a question of who they want to tick off, most agents know where their bread is buttered: by publishers, not by writers.

Smashwords does not work with Amazon (yet? they are in negotiations). But that's OK - they are not exclusive either. Nor is Amazon. Most self publishers put the book up on Amazon, then on Smashwords as well. Smashwords distributes to B&N (you can use Pubit instead to go direct to B&N, if you prefer), Kobo, Apple, Sony, Diesel, and a new company which makes Android and iOS apps available for the books is coming on line soon. Apple is easy to get onto - if you have a Mac; if not, you can't get the book up at all unless you go through Smashwords or some similar company. Kobo and Sony are notoriously hard to get books onto without an intermediary. So Smashwords has real value in opening these other markets.

Smashwords is also great for marketing short stories (or other 99 cent stories) to B&N. Pubit only pays 40 cents for a 99 cent book. Smashwords pays 60 cents for a 99 cent sale on B&N. For prices 2.99 and up, you make 65% via Pubit, which makes Pubit often the better choice (although there could be some advantage seen in NOT having the "Pubit" logo appear on your book page at B&N.com - Smashwords books do not have that logo, nor do they have the "Report this book for bad content" link, and if you buy a $10 ISBN from Smashwords, they list you as publisher, not Smashwords). But for 99 cent books (really, anything under 2.99) Smashwords is a clear win.
 
I wouldn't use Lulu, either; some friends and I used them to put together some mini-books of selections from our group blog, and I was downright unimpressed with their print-on-demand service. CreateSpace, on the other hand, did a fantastic job with both my NaNoWriMo 2009 proof copy and with a friend's full-color children's book. If I did self-publish, I'd look into them first.
Re: Lulu
They're another valid company to try...but they cost more for printing than Createspace or Lightning Source. Honestly, I would say *always* use Lightning Source if a) you have good experience with book design and b) you are sure your book will sell at least 50 copies in print. The experience is necessary because Createspace doesn't charge you to make changes to your book - but LSI does ($37.50 every time you upload a new interior, and the same every time you upload a new cover). Those extra charges mean you want it right the first time!

And the higher up front expense means you need to sell more to break even. Createspace costs about $50 for pro plan and ISBN. I will need to sell about 14 copies of my next book on Amazon to break even on that. LSI would have cost me $75 for upload (assuming I had no errors) plus a bunch more for an ISBN ($100 for one ISBN, or $250 for ten, a better deal but more cash up front). Minimally, I'd be looking at more like 25 copies to break even - and practically, because I'm still learning and likely to make mistakes, it could be even more.

So I see Createspace as a great place to learn the ropes, and LSI as a great place to hit once you're experienced, because you can sell the books from LSI for a 20% retailer discount, Amazon and B&N.com will pick them up just the same, and you end up earning quite a lot more per sale.
 
Wow. Terry and Kevin, thank you so much for your thoughts! You both know more about all this than I do; I've been reading industry blogs for a couple of years, but haven't the experience yet.

At the moment I'm just beginning the query process, and hoping to get agent representation as I definitely don't trust my own ability to catch all of the more dangerous clauses in a contract. But perhaps I should think about having a lawyer look any contracts over, too. If I'm lucky enough to get there... Self-publishing or traditional houses, I'm thinking there's a certain amount of luck involved in success. Not to discount good hard work, of course. :)

Thanks again!
 

TWErvin2

Auror
...I've been reading industry blogs for a couple of years, but haven't the experience yet...

...I'm thinking there's a certain amount of luck involved in success. Not to discount good hard work, of course. :)

Jenna St. Hilaire,

That you're reading up and paying attention puts you further ahead. Even if you may not know the answers, you know some of the questions to ask. One way I learned a little was to compare short fiction contracts sent to me to sign with model contracts posted by the SFWA (Fantasy & Science Fiction Writers of America ( SFWA ).

I agree there is a degree of luck involved in success but primary is a quality work.

Even so, does the submission show up on an agent/editor's desk after they've just signed a contract with someone with a very similar book? Or does it go to the slush reader of several who finds it of great interest and pushes it up the line?

Do they look at the slush pile/query stack that has grown too large and just clear the deck with form rejections? Or is it the first one looked in the few minutes the editor/agent has between phone calls or taking a cup of coffee?

Does a published work (self or traditional) get reviewed by a respected review site and it sparks interest in followers of that review site? Or does the review site close for considering new reviews days before your book is ready to be sent?

Do you cross paths with someone online or at a SF/Fantasy Convention or Writers Conference, or do you sit next to someone else during that panel?

In each of those cases, if luck did come up positive, if the work wasn't really good, nothing would come of it. But one thing is certain. If you don't complete a work and send it out there, there is absolutely zero chance for success.

Maybe others feel differently, but I think you can set yourself up for 'luck' by doing the right things the right way. And you know, it may not be luck. Just hard work and doing the right things the right way.
 
Just to throw this out there...I'm not experienced enough with one published novel, but maybe we can toss the idea around...but is anyone going to play devil's advocate and speak out against self-publishing or talk about the cons therein? This is in no way a statement of my own opinion, and maybe somewhere in these 10 pages someone did do this. I'm just curious what everyone thinks here.
 
@Mapdragon:

Ravana weighed in on the cons pretty heavily in the early pages of the post. I tried reading through a few days ago, but this argument has been going on for months, and hasn't seemed to cover any new ground. The people for it are still for it, the people against it are still against it.

I'll paraphrase and condense Ravana's arguments for you (Apologies if I miss or butcher some, Rav)

You won't be taken seriously by 'real' publishers if you self-publish first

You do not receive any free support from the publishing house, such as cover art, editing, marketing, etc.

Your work will most likely be lost in a sea of other self-published titles unless you essentially desert your day job and devote yourself to marketing your work yourself.

To reach the quality of a professionally published novel will be prohibitively expensive and come from your own pocket rather than the publishing house's.

Instead of being given an advance for the rights to publish your book and being instantly profitable, you first need to recoup the expense of self-publishing and marketing.

I think that was all the big points. I may have missed a few since after the first four pages of arguing I kind of zoned out.
 
Let me toss out a couple of responses there, then I'll devil's advocate based on my own experiences with both commercial publishing and self publishing.

You won't be taken seriously by 'real' publishers if you self-publish first
But if you've made a solid career self publishing, do you care if a handful of folks in New York don't "take you seriously"?
More importantly, perhaps, is that it seems like NYC publishers are taking self publishing more seriously all the time. There is a trend toward "picking up" hot names from the self publishing crowd. It's nowhere near common yet, mind; but it's growing.

You do not receive any free support from the publishing house, such as cover art, editing, marketing, etc.
Those services are not free. You simply pay for them in a deferred manner, on "loan". You pay for them by the publisher keeping 75% of the post-retailer on each ebook sale.

Your work will most likely be lost in a sea of other self-published titles unless you essentially desert your day job and devote yourself to marketing your work yourself.
All books - self published and commercially published - are increasingly going up into the same big morass in the internet. With publishers slashing marketing budgets for books, the difference in marketing given by commercial publishers is often insignificant. More and more, writers are forced to find ways to market their books regardless how they are published.

To reach the quality of a professionally published novel will be prohibitively expensive and come from your own pocket rather than the publishing house's.
Depends on your skills, your resources, and your network of friends and acquaintances. In my own case, I manage my own cover design and interior design, so my costs there are basically zero except for a few hours of my time. Ebook formatting, of course, is so simple my four years old managed it without trouble. Copy editing - proofreading, really - is *extremely* inexpensive if your work is already very clean to begin with. Plus you can always novel swap with another writer. ;)

I asked a friend in publishing whether he thought I could make a bid to outsource ebook conversion for their company at $1000 a novel. He said that was too low, they would not take me seriously. Said conversions AND proofing the conversions AND correcting any small errors in conversion takes me a few hours, tops. I found myself really interested to learn that there were folks willing to pay me $500 an hour to do that. ;)

Instead of being given an advance for the rights to publish your book and being instantly profitable, you first need to recoup the expense of self-publishing and marketing.
No argument here. See my devil's advocate section. ;)
 
OK, Devil's Advocate. ;) I've had some work self published. I've also had some work commercially published, in periodicals and one nonfiction book. So I've seen (a little bit!) of both sides.

What is good about commercial publishing?

1) Advances can be life changing.
If I was offered a $5k advance by a commercial publisher tomorrow, I'd turn it down. I'd either hold out for a better offer, or self publish. I have confidence I could make that much myself. On the flip side, if I was offered $50k, I'd probably snap it up in a heartbeat. That would let me drop my day job, which would let me commit to writing more, which would double or triple my writing output, which would mean more new books produced each year - all good things.

Now, what level "life changing" is for you may be different from what it is for me. But at some level, an advance simply rocks the foundation of what you currently have going on in your life, and lets you readjust priorities and refocus on your writing career. And that sort of advance, used that way, can be a powerful boon.

2) Professional, quality content editing can be of enormous use.
Our (co-credit) NF book didn't get much in the way of editing from Wordware, unfortunately. And it could have used it. A lot of books published today are not getting the same level of editorial review that you'd hope to see. But - many do. And the learning one can acquire by having a strong professional editor go over your work and make suggestions can be extremely useful, especially I think for the early to mid stages of your writing career. Say if you're in those first two million words. You can learn a lot from the experience. That learning can inform your future writing, which improves the quality of story you produce.

You can BUY that level of quality editing; but it's expensive (think thousands of dollars) and for every freelance editor out there who actually knows their stuff and is being honest and useful, I think there must be a dozen who are not going to be what you're looking for. You want a true pro who knows their craft, knows your genre, and has been doing this, ideally for decades.

3) It's nice to be in bookstores.
OK, the bookstores are going away rapidly, and in a few years this won't, perhaps, be such a big deal. But right now, it's still REALLY cool to see your book in Barnes & Nobles. Trust me. Been there, done that. =) It's a fun feeling! That said, I got my proof copy back last night for the first print book I had completely made entirely myself - cover is mine, interior is mine, and of course the writing is all mine. I think the feeling was just as good; maybe better, because I had more invested in the project personally.

But yeah, being in bookstores is still pretty nice. It *feels* good. And for the next few years (at least!), it's also a boost to sales, because half the people in the US still buy books in bookstores, not online.

4) If you can get it, a big commercial marketing push is HUGE.
Amanda Hocking signed a four book, $2 million dollar deal. She was already selling millions of ebooks - why did she do this? It wasn't for the cash - she said in her blog she expects she'd earn more self publishing those four books. It wasn't because she dislikes self publishing - she's self published another book in May, and plans to self pub 3-4 books for every one she commercially publishes. She did it for the marketing push. Because at $500k a book, SMP needs to sell hundreds of thousands of her books just to break even. And they want to profit, not break even - so they will push her books like mad. She'll get special placement in bookstores paid for by her publisher, hundreds of copies sent out to reviewers, ad dollars, and many other forms of marketing assistance. The publishers will push the books. And that will help build her name, which will help build the 12-16 *other* books she self publishes over the four years she'd contracted with SMP, along with the ten she already has out.

But whether or not you're self publishing other books, that marketing push can be huge. IF you get it. The bigger your advance, the more heavily they have to push your book. Related to "big advances matter", above, this sort of PR push for your name can be a huge boon to your career, obviously!

5) Self publishing makes YOU responsible for everything.
Submitting to commercial publishers, if the book gets rejected a whole bunch of time, you can still tell yourself that it's not the book - it's the publishers who are wrong, the book is really good and would sell. If you self publish, and you get the word out, and it doesn't sell? You really have to face the music at that point: something is wrong with your book. Might be a lot of things, but something *you* did is wrong. With a publisher, if the book flops, you can blame poor distribution, poor cover art, or lack of publisher marketing effort. If you self publish, you have no scapegoat for a book doing poorly. You have to look in the mirror, face facts, try to figure out what went wrong, and move forward to fix those errors (in future books, if you can't with the current one). It's a level of responsibility which many writers simply do not want to have anything to do with.

6) Self publishing is scary.
It means learning new things, which is always uncomfortable. It means ditching old ideas of how "things are done", which is always uncomfortable. It means adapting to the new ways books are being published, means focusing on being attentive to your audience, means focusing on building a larger body of work - all of which can be uncomfortable. Add those all up, and it can be a scary place.

The truth is, writers have always been running their own businesses, and essentially being entrepreneurs. But for the last couple of decades, they've increasingly been encourages to let agents "take care" of the business end, and "focus on writing". Sometimes that's worked out well; sometimes not. But it's raised a culture of writers to whom business is mysterious, a black box thing that they don't understand and never wanted to understand. It's a *radical* departure from most successful writers of the first two thirds of the 20th century.

And honestly? Today, I think it's a career ending attitude. Whether you commercially publish books, self pub, or mix the two, you are going to need to learn business. You're going to need to figure out contracts yourself. You're going to need to understand finance and expenses and what you should be able to get for a given book - and what you put INTO that book as well (time is an expense, remember). Writers who can't do that are going to begin failing (have begun failing, if you read Kris Rusch's blog from last week). Writers who learn business will have better odds of success in these rapidly changing times - regardless how they publish.

But it's STILL a scary thing. It's just a scary thing we're all going to need to face to pursue this career.


Those are the big ones that come to mind, right now. Probably more too. ;) I'll think on it and do more counterpoint arguments if I think of some.
 
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