Limiting the power of Magic and Magical Weapons

[Xenodeus Blade]

In my world, magic is a prominant force but its not as common as in most fantasys. First off, all magic is punishable by death. After an event called the Mage War, most of the planet was left in ruins, causing all technology to revert back into the Dark Ages. Mages still exist, some actually survivers of the Mage War, but they are in hiding because the events of the War was so devestating, its effects are still felt after two thousand years.

Also magic weapons aren't really that impressive. They are not given special powers or anything of the like. Most magical weapons are basically regular weapons but slightly stronger than average. There are some weapons that have special abilities, but they are exceptions.

The closest thing in my world that can be an equivelent to other magical weapons are weapons made by the Iminori, a race of semi-divine humans that were nearly wiped out during Mage War, and with them, the art of making their weapons.

The reason why Iminori weapons are so powerful is because they are forged from Sunstone, a glass-like substance that is nearly impossible to forge because they actually absorb heat.

Iminori weapons can in some ways be similar to Valaryian Steel swords from Game of Thrones, but unlike them, there is actually a limited number of them. Where as Game of Thrones has almost 3000 Valaryian Steel weapons, there are barely a hundred Iminori weapons.

Is this a good idea or not?

 

[Queshire]

Hm..... It's a good idea, but I have a problem with the normal magical weapons. IF magic is punishable with death, AND normal magical weapons don't provide any concrete benefit to their wielder THEN nobody would use normal magical weapons. IF nobody would use normal magical weapons THEN they are just an extra detail distracting from your plot.

Basically, what I'm trying to get at is that you need to make the normal magical weapons more impressive in order to justify the risk of using them, or get rid of them all together. I understand you're trying to down play the deus ex machina-ness of magic, but it seems to me like you're pulling it in two different directions.

 

[shangrila]

I agree with Queshire, your magic weapons don't seem to have a point. If having them would mean death and they're basically just built stronger (you could, for example, swap the magic element with some other kind of metal and I doubt your story would miss a beat), then what reason would people have to use them?

Other than that it seems good.

 

[Xenodeus Blade]

People using magic is punishable by death. Using magic weapons is ok.

 

[Hans]

Does this apply to artifact magic in general?
What is with the making of magic swords? Does this count as punishable magic?

 

[Robert Donnell]

You have to nerf the character’s’ magic or else the story will not be all that interesting.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Perhaps this is because I am a nerd for government and politics but it would be interesting, perhaps, to make using magic weapons by the common man punishable by imprisonment yet for the government to use these weapons secretly. Clearly this is a glaring hypocrisy in the governmental structure and because of such could add tension between the rulers and the people at large.

 

[Xenodeus Blade]

Ok here is how magic works in my world. Anyone who practices, uses, or does anything with magic will automatically be hunted down and burned at the stake.

Weapons created by magic are ok because, there is no way to tell if a weapon is magical unless you are a mage. Certain magical weapons, like elvish swords, are an easy tell because elves tend to use the same design for all of their weapons, either a leaf-shaped blade or a cresent moon shape. Dwarven weapons are not considered magical weapons because they focus more on science and various methods of creating stronger steel. In my world, mithril is not good for making weapons such as swords or axes.

Iminori weapons are not outlawed because since their kind is nearly extinct aside from a few wonder tribes, they do it out of respect. Also they were not create with the use of magic, but divine power, so their power come directly from the Gods. Also the weapons are somewhat sentient, so the wielder is not given the power right away, but prove that they are worthy and have to earn it.

 

[Ravana]

Perhaps this is because I am a nerd for government and politics but it would be interesting, perhaps, to make using magic weapons by the common man punishable by imprisonment yet for the government to use these weapons secretly. Clearly this is a glaring hypocrisy in the governmental structure and because of such could add tension between the rulers and the people at large.

Why secretly? There have been plenty of societies where commoners couldn't carry weapons, period. Why do you think Okinawans learned to fight with millstone sticks, rice flails and boat paddles? (Okay, the story of weapons' origin may be a myth… but it does make a point. And they were prohibited from carrying weapons under Japanese rule.) Allowing them to carry non-magical ones would be generous by comparison.

-

Xenodeus: note that none of what you said has anything to do with "limiting the power" of magic or magical weapons–only the scope of use. Traditionally, of course, magic usually needs to be practiced for someone to get good at it… the inability to do so might present limits on the power levels actually developed. But it's also often traditional that any literate clown can read off spells of massive power–even if this usually leads only to tears, and to people feeling they have good reasons to outlaw magic.

Far from setting yourself up to avoid magical deus ex machina situations, it seems to me you've all but guaranteed them: these rarer-than-usual, more-powerful-than-usual weapons are hardly likely to be effectively countered by anything they'll run up against–the difference between Sting and Stormbringer. (Except that in Moorcock's world, there was only one other sword that could match up with Stormbringer, not a hundred. Even Saberhagen only had twelve.) Purely from a plot-functional point of view, it's hard for me to see them as being anything other than a way for your "worthy" protagonist to bludgeon his way past all opposition. If you want to limit the effects of magic, do it by limiting magic, not by preventing it from being used by anyone inconvenient to your storyline.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Well Ravana there is a saying in politics; "It's not the scandal but the cover-up that kills you." If a government is covering up that people can't use magical weapons but the government can the people would be angry. However, if that was an openly stated fact the people wouldn't care and simply accept it for what it is.

 

[Saigonnus]

Why secretly? There have been plenty of societies where commoners couldn't carry weapons, period. Why do you think Okinawans learned to fight with millstone sticks, rice flails and boat paddles? (Okay, the story of weapons' origin may be a myth… but it does make a point. And they were prohibited from carrying weapons under Japanese rule.) Allowing them to carry non-magical ones would be generous by comparison. /QUOTE]

Another example is the Scottish under English rule. Since they were forbidden usual weapons, they trained with cabers and stones of various sizes (the origins of modern shot-put) and often used mattocks, axes or hay forks and the like as weapons. Normally the things they used were some use on a farm and so the English couldn't really make them illegal. The English discovered to their chagrin that they were just as effective in battle as a sword when the person wielding it has the intent and skill to kill you.

 

[Sheilawisz]

When you say magical weapons you think of magical swords, magically enhanced forms of metal and similar things... but for me, the words magical weapons have a different meaning and I think of the strange, surreal stuff that my Mages throw at each other in battle.

Let's say that you wanted to have in your story a magical weapon that is a dazzling green, fire-like substance which burns so fiercely that even rocks and steel are burned instantly and it seems to have the power to spread out of control, even destroying entire cities in the process!! What limitations would you give to such a magical weapon?

In this case, magical forcefield-like shields that can resist it at least for some time, or another weapon that can destroy it, are very good options to limit how destructive it can be =)

Magic can be its own limits...

 

[Xenodeus Blade]

Why secretly? There have been plenty of societies where commoners couldn't carry weapons, period. Why do you think Okinawans learned to fight with millstone sticks, rice flails and boat paddles? (Okay, the story of weapons' origin may be a myth… but it does make a point. And they were prohibited from carrying weapons under Japanese rule.) Allowing them to carry non-magical ones would be generous by comparison.

-

Xenodeus: note that none of what you said has anything to do with "limiting the power" of magic or magical weapons–only the scope of use. Traditionally, of course, magic usually needs to be practiced for someone to get good at it… the inability to do so might present limits on the power levels actually developed. But it's also often traditional that any literate clown can read off spells of massive power–even if this usually leads only to tears, and to people feeling they have good reasons to outlaw magic.

Far from setting yourself up to avoid magical deus ex machina situations, it seems to me you've all but guaranteed them: these rarer-than-usual, more-powerful-than-usual weapons are hardly likely to be effectively countered by anything they'll run up against–the difference between Sting and Stormbringer. (Except that in Moorcock's world, there was only one other sword that could match up with Stormbringer, not a hundred. Even Saberhagen only had twelve.) Purely from a plot-functional point of view, it's hard for me to see them as being anything other than a way for your "worthy" protagonist to bludgeon his way past all opposition. If you want to limit the effects of magic, do it by limiting magic, not by preventing it from being used by anyone inconvenient to your storyline.

I just want to point out that Stormbringer had thousands of cousins that were demons shaped like a sword. Only two were in the mortal plane: Stormbringer and Ebonblade.

Second. In my story, magic is very powerful, but it is not treated the same way as in Harry Potter or Wheel of Time. In order for a Mage to cast a spell, from creating a simple ball of light or raining fire from the heavens, they need to prepare ahead of time. Have various supplies, chanting, a spellbook to read from, and not only that, the mental discipline to control the arcane energies, the physical health to withstand the strain.

Some very simple spells, like throwing fireballs, take about a minute to cast. The casting time also depends on the raw power of the caster.

 

[BeigePalladin]

to back up what brian said, its a much easier way to incite anger/rebellion in the populace in a beliveable manner.

though I'm in agreement with ravanaa about having ultra-powerful unstoppable weapons being a set up for Dues-Ex-Machina rather than a cure. The best way to limit magic is to limit what can be done with it practically (even if anything can be done with magic in theory, people would need time and effort to learn how, etc) and have counters avaliable for what does exist. If there's something that exists that cannot be stopped - or effectivly cannot be stopped, such as the thing capable of stopping it being kept far away or their being only 2 of them (thus picking the stopper up conviniently would be another dues ex machina) - then it in itself is a prebuilt dues ex machina for whomever picks it up, or stopping it would be the main point of the tale or else is strains belief and kills all tension (my biggest problem with the sword of truth series is that it keeps throwing the characters into fights when the main one is equiped with a sword that makes him an expert and can cut anything means the fights go from intresting to filler...)

 

[Ravana]

I just want to point out that Stormbringer had thousands of cousins that were demons shaped like a sword. Only two were in the mortal plane: Stormbringer and Ebonblade.

Mournblade… but close enough. (Unless for some reason the name got changed in a later book that I never read.) Though saying that others could be summoned is like saying the gods of your world could make more of your special swords; it's what's available to your characters that will matter.

Second. In my story, magic is very powerful, but it is not treated the same way as in Harry Potter or Wheel of Time. In order for a Mage to cast a spell, from creating a simple ball of light or raining fire from the heavens, they need to prepare ahead of time. Have various supplies, chanting, a spellbook to read from, and not only that, the mental discipline to control the arcane energies, the physical health to withstand the strain.

Some very simple spells, like throwing fireballs, take about a minute to cast. The casting time also depends on the raw power of the caster.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you were originally asking about, then. On the one hand, you have already imposed several "limits" on magic–though it's on how it can be done (a common enough approach), not on what it can do. On the other, calling a fireball a "very simple spell" is a bigger indicator of a "limit" problem than anything else you've mentioned thus far… because there's no a priori reason to consider this a "simple" spell. (Not even if it's a small ball.) In deciding that it is, you've set up your own problem.

I could make any number of suggestions on how to refine the way magic works and is limited in your story, but because of the number of possibilities, it would be more useful if I understood what you're after. There isn't much point in trying to answer a question you aren't asking, after all. So let's try backing up: could you rephrase the question, please?

 

[Xenodeus Blade]

Mournblade… but close enough. (Unless for some reason the name got changed in a later book that I never read.) Though saying that others could be summoned is like saying the gods of your world could make more of your special swords; it's what's available to your characters that will matter.



I'm afraid I don't understand what you were originally asking about, then. On the one hand, you have already imposed several "limits" on magic—though it's on how it can be done (a common enough approach), not on what it can do. On the other, calling a fireball a "very simple spell" is a bigger indicator of a "limit" problem than anything else you've mentioned thus far… because there's no a priori reason to consider this a "simple" spell. (Not even if it's a small ball.) In deciding that it is, you've set up your own problem.

I could make any number of suggestions on how to refine the way magic works and is limited in your story, but because of the number of possibilities, it would be more useful if I understood what you're after. There isn't much point in trying to answer a question you aren't asking, after all. So let's try backing up: could you rephrase the question, please?

Ok. I want to have the magic in my world be powerful, but not overpowered. Like no magical spell is instant, but takes a lot of work to use. But at the same time, I don't want to depower magic so much that it seems like why did I bother putting it in.

Also for many of the "magical" weapons that some characters use are weapons created and powered by the Gods. That is important because for those characters, it means that something so special about them, the Gods actually trust them with those weapons.

 

[Ravana]

Ok. I want to have the magic in my world be powerful, but not overpowered. Like no magical spell is instant, but takes a lot of work to use. But at the same time, I don't want to depower magic so much that it seems like why did I bother putting it in.

Fair enough. I'd say the limits you already have in place are appropriate, and all you need is to adjust their application.

One method I've seen, if you want mages to be able to cast "combat" spells in a short enough time they'll actually be useful in combat, is to allow them to prepare the spells up to the final element… which they can release quickly at need. (My favorite term for this is "hanging" spells on oneself.) This limits the caster to what he can anticipate, in addition to what he has the time and resources to prepare. There may be limits to how much energy a caster can have hanging about him at once (with very unpleasant consequences if this gets exceeded); each spell might require a separate physical focus to be carried (a stone, a wand, whatever); the presence of prepared spells can be detectable, making it dangerous for the mage to walk around with them–especially dangerous in your setting, if it's possible for some people to detect latent magic. The spells might decay over time, making them less effective if they've been prepared too far in advance, gradually fading out altogether… which could be really embarrassing if the mage can't tell exactly what the remaining power on his spells are, beyond a general sense of whether they're still active or not. Certain spells might interfere with one another if hung together–a fire spell and a fireproof shield spell could counteract one another, for example–so only certain combinations could be carried by a given caster. Other combinations might create unexpected enhancements, causing a spell to have a greater effect than intended, which can also be inconvenient… especially if the caster ends up getting caught in the area of effect. Or they could cause well-known enhancements, causing the caster to avoid those combinations if the results are predictably inconvenient.

This way, a fireball doesn't take "a minute" to cast: it may take an hour to cast, or six, or a day–but it can be released with a few words and a gesture, once it's prepared. How much time does a mage have available to spend on preparing spells to meet every contingency he can anticipate? Eventually, he'd reach a point of diminishing returns. The bigger and badder the spell, the more time, resources, etc. it requires… the highest-end ones might not be preparable in this way at all: they have to be released once the power is built up. Some truly "simple" spells might be castable "on the fly," but these should be minor: a torch-sized illumination, lighting a candle, chilling wine, etc. Things that may be useful, but don't have much in the way of combat applications. Not unless the mage is amazingly creative, at least. Anything much beyond that is going to be too difficult for the mage to cast while he's busy dodging sword blows; at best, he's going to need someone to give him cover and time.

Also, the caster will need to be careful about the trigger conditions: each one needs to be different, or else all his spells go off at once; each has to be something he can't do accidentally, or the spell might go off unintentionally; each has to be something that someone else can't do to trigger it, or he could be in real trouble. The way magic is normally handled, none of these is a problem… but it does give you possibilities to play with.

This can allow a mage to have, oh, say, three? five? spells "ready to go"–making him a credible threat in a combat situation, but without allowing him to be able to "do anything," even if magic in general can do "anything," given the time and resources to do it. The great battle spells that devastated your world might have required large circles of mages working in conjunction for days at a time, within a set of magical circles that need to be engraved permanently into a stone surface in a specially shielded room, with candles, incense, rare materials that need to be "fed" into and consumed by the spell, maybe a sacrifice or ten, and a congregation of faithful followers chanting continuously to feed their own spirit-energy into the thing. After a week of all this, the spell is ready to launch against a city… and must be, immediately: it can't be "held ready," not by any power in this world at least.

Better hope your enemies can't get their forces into your tower before you're done. For that matter, better hope they don't use a simpler and faster spell, which might not wipe out your city, but which will disrupt your efforts.

As for the more limited, contemporary mage: well, he just has to hope he's guessed right about what spells he's going to need in a given situation. A conundrum that could make most of them so paranoid they'd never leave their homes, for fear of getting them wrong.

Also for many of the "magical" weapons that some characters use are weapons created and powered by the Gods. That is important because for those characters, it means that something so special about them, the Gods actually trust them with those weapons.

Again, fair enough: just keep in mind the earlier warnings about allowing the benefits to become so great that they effectively become a deus ex machina. And the bad guys will need some other kind of powers/abilities to balance this, since they aren't favored by the gods.

 

[Xenodeus Blade]

Fair enough. I'd say the limits you already have in place are appropriate, and all you need is to adjust their application.

One method I've seen, if you want mages to be able to cast "combat" spells in a short enough time they'll actually be useful in combat, is to allow them to prepare the spells up to the final element… which they can release quickly at need. (My favorite term for this is "hanging" spells on oneself.) This limits the caster to what he can anticipate, in addition to what he has the time and resources to prepare. There may be limits to how much energy a caster can have hanging about him at once (with very unpleasant consequences if this gets exceeded); each spell might require a separate physical focus to be carried (a stone, a wand, whatever); the presence of prepared spells can be detectable, making it dangerous for the mage to walk around with them—especially dangerous in your setting, if it's possible for some people to detect latent magic. The spells might decay over time, making them less effective if they've been prepared too far in advance, gradually fading out altogether… which could be really embarrassing if the mage can't tell exactly what the remaining power on his spells are, beyond a general sense of whether they're still active or not. Certain spells might interfere with one another if hung together—a fire spell and a fireproof shield spell could counteract one another, for example—so only certain combinations could be carried by a given caster. Other combinations might create unexpected enhancements, causing a spell to have a greater effect than intended, which can also be inconvenient… especially if the caster ends up getting caught in the area of effect. Or they could cause well-known enhancements, causing the caster to avoid those combinations if the results are predictably inconvenient.

This way, a fireball doesn't take "a minute" to cast: it may take an hour to cast, or six, or a day—but it can be released with a few words and a gesture, once it's prepared. How much time does a mage have available to spend on preparing spells to meet every contingency he can anticipate? Eventually, he'd reach a point of diminishing returns. The bigger and badder the spell, the more time, resources, etc. it requires… the highest-end ones might not be preparable in this way at all: they have to be released once the power is built up. Some truly "simple" spells might be castable "on the fly," but these should be minor: a torch-sized illumination, lighting a candle, chilling wine, etc. Things that may be useful, but don't have much in the way of combat applications. Not unless the mage is amazingly creative, at least. Anything much beyond that is going to be too difficult for the mage to cast while he's busy dodging sword blows; at best, he's going to need someone to give him cover and time.

Also, the caster will need to be careful about the trigger conditions: each one needs to be different, or else all his spells go off at once; each has to be something he can't do accidentally, or the spell might go off unintentionally; each has to be something that someone else can't do to trigger it, or he could be in real trouble. The way magic is normally handled, none of these is a problem… but it does give you possibilities to play with.

This can allow a mage to have, oh, say, three? five? spells "ready to go"—making him a credible threat in a combat situation, but without allowing him to be able to "do anything," even if magic in general can do "anything," given the time and resources to do it. The great battle spells that devastated your world might have required large circles of mages working in conjunction for days at a time, within a set of magical circles that need to be engraved permanently into a stone surface in a specially shielded room, with candles, incense, rare materials that need to be "fed" into and consumed by the spell, maybe a sacrifice or ten, and a congregation of faithful followers chanting continuously to feed their own spirit-energy into the thing. After a week of all this, the spell is ready to launch against a city… and must be, immediately: it can't be "held ready," not by any power in this world at least.

Better hope your enemies can't get their forces into your tower before you're done. For that matter, better hope they don't use a simpler and faster spell, which might not wipe out your city, but which will disrupt your efforts.

As for the more limited, contemporary mage: well, he just has to hope he's guessed right about what spells he's going to need in a given situation. A conundrum that could make most of them so paranoid they'd never leave their homes, for fear of getting them wrong.



Again, fair enough: just keep in mind the earlier warnings about allowing the benefits to become so great that they effectively become a deus ex machina. And the bad guys will need some other kind of powers/abilities to balance this, since they aren't favored by the gods.

Thank you. That is actually very helpful. I'm thinking a way for mages to store their already prepared spells so that for him/her to use a spell, they say a key word and it appears from the stored object. It will either be a staff or a book.

Also, the god weapons' power only works in the presence of the servants of the Dark God, or in the presence of someone who is pure evil. Otherwise they are ordinary weapons.

 

[Ravana]

You're quite welcome. Glad I could be of assistance.